I first watched this last year because I was so enchanted by the charmingly pansexual rogue Captain Jack Harkness. A show all about him sounded like a great idea. And then I actually started watching Torchwood, in which Captain Jack and a crew of sociopathic losers theoretically mop up alien incursions in Cardiff, though as far as I could tell their interventions mostly made matters worse.

To give some context, I watched the first two episodes and the evil fairy episode in entirety, plus about ten minutes of the mad slasher episode and the bronze bikini Cyberwoman episode before turning off the TV in disgust.

Jack probably was intended to be traumatized and angsty, but came across as wooden and charmless. Toshiko had no personality. Gwen was OK but not compelling. I liked Ianto but he was underused. And Owen was scum. I would not mind this if the writers noticed that he was scum, but they seemed to think that roofie rapist = charming rogue. Let me repeat: one of the heroes is a rapist.

I was also irate at the flashback to India, in which Jack is command of a troop of British evil colonialist oppressors soldiers. One of them gets drunk and runs over a little girl and kills her. Does Jack care? Does he punish the soldier for killing a little girl? No! He merrily lets him merrily continue along his way, and then is very very sad when supernatural revenge kills the little-girl murderer along with lots of collateral damage to the rest of the soldiers. However, since none of the other soldiers care one bit that one of them is a little-girl-killer, I felt that they all deserved what they got.

I think the last time I such massive moral issues with a TV show was when I stopped watching 24 because it turned into pro-torture agitprop. Oh, and it was also kind of boring. I metaphorically flung the whole shebang against the wall.

But then last night I remembered that [livejournal.com profile] telophase had said that this one episode, "Out of Time," was really good, and I watched it, and it was really good. Even though it made out like Owen the rapist was some kind of good guy.

Plus [livejournal.com profile] branna and [livejournal.com profile] klwilliams said that in season two, Jack and Ianto make out. I have no moral leg to stand on here, but I really want to see that.

Season Two: Is it better artistically? Does Jack's acting improve? Does Ianto get more screentime, and was the fact that I liked him before just because he hadn't been onscreen long enough to be a loathsome rapist little-girl-murderer-approving scumbag? And, um, in which episodes do they make out, in case I only want to watch those?

From: [identity profile] spectralbovine.livejournal.com


Yeah, I'm pretty much with you on Torchwood. The evil fairy episode was the last one I watched, and I actually kind of liked it, but I'd just had enough of the show and all the characters I hated. I have heard season two is an improvement, though. Although Jack's acting does not improve.

From: [identity profile] nestra.livejournal.com


Season Two: Is it better artistically?

Yes.

Does Jack's acting improve?

Not really.

Does Ianto get more screentime

Yes.

and was the fact that I liked him before just because he hadn't been onscreen long enough to be a loathsome rapist little-girl-murderer-approving scumbag?

Uh...no.

And, um, in which episodes do they make out, in case I only want to watch those?

Season 1, ep 13. Season 2, ep 3. Season 2, ep 11.

Season 2 is really much, much better than Season 1, though I love them both.
gwynnega: (Jack Utopia alanna)

From: [personal profile] gwynnega


Season two: worlds better, and Ianto gets lots more screentime and character development (and gets to make out with Jack in several episodes, if memory serves).

From: [identity profile] ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com


Season Two: Is it better artistically? Does Jack's acting improve? Does Ianto get more screentime, and was the fact that I liked him before just because he hadn't been onscreen long enough to be a loathsome rapist little-girl-murderer-approving scumbag? And, um, in which episodes do they make out, in case I only want to watch those?

1.) Oh my yes. The improvement is staggering.

2.) Um. Maybe, a little? His writing improves, and it's playing more to Barrowman's strengths.

3a.) Yes, a lot, and he gets many of the best lines. And his acting is improving almost episode-by-episode.

3b.) No. You liked him because he was awesome, in a True Neutral Hufflepuff (*Now, with Added Man-Pain!) sort of way, as he is this season. Also, he sometimes appears (a) in tight jeans, and (b) shirtless.

4.) ...a lot of them, really. But for highlights, there's a lovely snog and some dancing in "Something Borrowed," shirtlessness and office sex (interrupted) in "Adrift," and the aforementioned tight jeans in "Fragments."

Also, Owen actually seems to be growing up and en route to becoming a good guy this season, and they're not doing it by whitewashing everything he's ever done. He did start last season as a loathesome rapist, but... well, he's changing, and more I will not say.

From: [identity profile] wyldemusick.livejournal.com


The second season of Torchwood has worked hard to rehabilitate Owen, but it's still impossible to overcome that very bad lapse in judgment in the second episode.

There's good things about the second season overall, but there's also a lot of those negatives you note....

From: [identity profile] ide-cyan.livejournal.com


Jack and James Masters make out in the first episode of S2. Jack and Ianto make out in "To The Last Man" and "Adrift". (And they dance in "Something Borrowed".)

The show... well, parts of it improve, but they keep foisting this attempt at making Owen seem likeable on the audience, which... ergh. Also, if you want to say no to 24-like torture, skip the second episode, "Sleeper", and possibly "Fragments".

Oh, and there's another rape (though not by Owen) in "Adam", which yet again seems to have completely bypassed the showrunners' consciousness.

From: [identity profile] lady-ganesh.livejournal.com


I thought the "Adam" rape thing was handled-- not well, exactly-- but the abuses the rapist character commits are IMO treated very seriously. I'm honestly not sure the physical rape would bother me as much as the emotional abuses committed.

From: [identity profile] karenthology.livejournal.com


It is definitely better, character-wise; both Ianto and Toshiko get a lot more favorable screen-time, even though Tosh's origin story makes you want to go "wha?" Owen gets the most character development of them all, I think. Jack/Ianto is definitely developed, and you do see it, but they've been doing this very nice, understated shift of "hey, we're doing things together" to something else completely -- or I may be the only one seeing that, I don't know. You do learn more about Jack, although he gets really dumb and weepy in "Adam." The SFnal element continues to be -- well, you can't expect hard SF from a Doctor Who spinoff.

Overall, much, much better. Still worse than stuff like Battlestar Galactica.

From: [identity profile] veejane.livejournal.com


The only way I can watch the show is with extremely low viewing comprehension. Thus, Owen is just Burn Gorman's hilariously rubbery face, making hilarious expressions for no particular reason, and people talking and waving their arms like Kermit.

(Also, you might prefer to watch clips on YouTube, which will provide Teh Gay without including any of the plot.)

From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com


WTF? One of the heroes is a rapist? (One time or serial? Not that it makes a huge difference, I just need to know how loud my "WTF?" should be.) And another was fine with his soldier killing a kid?

Why do things like this never get mentioned when people rec this to me?

(Actually, I shouldn't be surprised at either...fans are amazingly forgiving of a male character's crimes as long as he's attractive/angsty/whatever...just look at Jaime in George R.R. Martin's asoiaf.)

From: [identity profile] ide-cyan.livejournal.com


First episode: Owen uses an alien eau de cologne spray on himself at a bar, which causes the woman he wants to sleep with (who has shown no interest in him) to suddenly throw herself at him. They walk out of the bar to go have sex, and the woman's boyfriend turns up as they're leaving, and gets angry that his girlfriend's with another man. Owen uses the spray on himself again for it to have an effect on the boyfriend as well, and he throws himself at Owen, too. Cue the couple arguing about who gets Owen first. Ha-ha.

From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com


I am now reminded of a romance novel I read a few months ago where the "hero" was drugging the heroine-even though it was making her sick-so that he could have sex with her in the dream world where she wouldn't think it was real, and was blaming her for her sickness for resisting him.

From: [identity profile] lady-ganesh.livejournal.com


In the very next episode he ends up experiencing a rape and murder from the victim's perspective, and it does, in the end, change him. I actually like Torchwood for having the balls to have a really, really unlikeable character as part of the main cast. I still don't like Owen much, but Burn Gorman, the actor, does a wonderful job with him, IMO.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com


Burn Gorman's a talented actor; I still despise Owen. In 2x08 we have confirmation that Owen went through with it and raped Linda, because the shot of her kissing him post- alien roofie in the bar plays at exactly the moment when he's reminiscing fondly about "sex" (in a list of the exciting things his pre-zombie life contained). He certainly doesn't sound remorseful, and Torchwood's writers don't have a very good grasp on the idea that rape and sexual assault don't require violence.

From: [identity profile] lenora-rose.livejournal.com



Owen at the start of first season is slimy, and borderline, and I'm *glad* in the episode where he has to experience what it's like for a girl to get rape-murdered. But I've wondered if it qualifies as a roofie-rape; he uses the spray on *himself*, not on the other person. While it acts as a pheromone and makes him hard to resist, which is sex under false pretenses, and scuzzy as hell, I'm not sure it actually takes away the other person's capacity to consent.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com


As spiralsheep comments, it's the law in Wales and England that drugging a non-consenting person for the purpose of having sex with him/her is rape, and if that drug didn't also drug the woman and man Owen wanted sex with then I don't understand what effected them into sudden compliance with Owen's wishes when they'd both been previously shown as non-compliant towards him. (http://lizbee.livejournal.com/787713.html?thread=8018177&format=light#t8018177)

As I replied, when Owen sprayed himself, they had to have breathed it in. There's no other cause-and-effect explanation. Therefore both the woman and her boyfriend were drugged, without their consent.

I don't think the writers or members of the audience would have to had sought help at a rape crisis center before understanding that if:

Person A walks into a bar and picks out a random Person B,
Person A approaches Person B for sex,
Person B explicitly says no thanks,
Person A sprays a chemical on himself (just before doing so, Person A trots out some of the same old tired self-justifying garbage employed by rapists everywhere: 'Look. I've got to be up early and I've got a hell of a day tomorrow and I really can't be bothered with all the chat.' (http://www.kilohoku.com/transcripts/tw/tw-1X01.html)),
Person B explicitly takes a deep breath, therefore becoming exposed to the chemical, then becomes intoxicated and compliant,
Person A leads Person B out of the bar for sex...
as liviapenn comments, that's not date rape, given that they're not even on a date. That's straight-up rape. It doesn't require violence!

It's - if possible - even clearer that this is a case of multiple rape when Owen runs into the boyfriend, Colin, who's hostile to the point of threatening an immediate punch-up. Owen sprays himself again, therefore exposing Colin to the chemical, and Colin becomes intoxicated and compliant. Owen immediately calls for a taxi.

I originally considered the possibility that Owen's experience in 1x03 witnessing rape and murder via alien device and apparently affected by the emotions of the victim meant the show was trying to address the issue, or show character growth. However, in 2x08 we have confirmation that Owen went through with it and raped Linda, because the shot of her kissing him post- alien roofie in the bar plays at exactly the moment when he's reminiscing fondly about "sex" (in a list of the exciting things his pre-zombie life contained). He certainly doesn't sound remorseful.

As spiralsheep notes, the idea that Owen's use of the spray wasn't rape is a common view of forced consent which makes many rapes difficult to prosecute in real court cases with real juries made up of ordinary people.

From: [identity profile] lenora-rose.livejournal.com


I will say up front, I'm arguing about what the *writers* intended. I've tried to read the show the writers, who are incompetent, meant me to watch, underneath the horrible mishmash they actually created. (Except Catherine Tregenna. They damn well should fire Chibnall and hire her as head writer. I might get the show I wish it was.)

I think if the writers wanted the device to be read as roofie rape (Which is real rape, there is no argument on that), they would have explicitly had Owen spray the other person. And then they'd have had to think about that more seriously, and change Owen's secret use of alien tech to something else.

However, if breathing in the spray makes people one wasn't previously attracted to immediately irresistible, Owen himself should be falling all over himself to get at the other person/people, too, not sitting back, cool and collected, to all appearances in control of his hormones. In fact, he'd be worse than either of them, since he gets it twice, and in a larger dose.

I think there's a confusion here based on incredibly shoddy writing on their part (It wouldn't be the first or the last). These writers have proven several times over that they don't think through borderline situations, or how it will read if you interpret it on the evil side of the border. (Gwen explicitly does drug her boyfriend, now husband, once, and while it isn't for purposes of rape, I find it utterly reprehensible, but the way it was written showed me the writers seemed to think we should feel sorry for her.)

I think the writers meant it to be like a faerie glamour; the girl looks again, and suddenly thinks, "Hey, this guy is like, the spitting image of every rock star I've ever fantasized about" and changes her mind. And the fact that it is depicted with an aerosol spray, which one can interpret as the other person breathing in as well, is creating an idea the writers didn't intend. Because people do think about the method of delivery.

If they had, instead, shown Owen swallowing a pill, and the same result on Linda and Colin's parts, it would be more clear it's non-rape.

And actually, I'm thinking that showing Owen kissing Linda in the reminiscences, is further indication that the writers didn't mean it to be read as rape (Because it didn't occur to them that using that repeat shot would be read as a Bad Thing), not further indication that Owen is still a slimeball.

Honestly, I think the writers (Especially Chris Chibnall) are clueless, not malevolent. I think they honestly thought they were keeping the scene on the Right side of the line of consent by having Owen spray himself.

And before you push *THAT* button again, in the real world I'd err on the side of believing the victim. The thing is, we are talking about a tv show, where we don't have what he thinks and what she thinks, and what witnesses think, but what the script says, how the actor plays it, and what the whole cast and crew are trying to depict. It would be nice to see what Linda and Colin actually thought happened to them the morning after, and in the real world, we could, and would, explicitly know what they thought.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com


Oh, I don't think the writers meant it to be read as rape. In fact, Chris Chibnall shared his thoughts in an interview in TV Zone last week. They went like this:

They didn't intend it to be a depiction of date rape, it wasn't written, filmed or acted that way, they don't understand where that interpretation came from, and they have no regrets. (http://lizbee.livejournal.com/787713.html?format=light)

Apparently, Chibnall couldn't even muster up "We don't think that's the way the scene went, but apologies for any offense." But whatever - I agree that the fact that the show flashbacks to the scene in 2x08, in a positive light, confirms that the writers just don't see Owen's actions as rape. spiralsheep doesn't care about Chibnall (http://lizbee.livejournal.com/787713.html?thread=8017665&format=light#t8017665), but I agree with her that if an artist's work shows something to their audience which isn't what the creator(s) consciously intended then that's not the audience's problem, it's either the artist's problem or society's problem or both. (http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/202851.html?thread=2896739#t2896739)

As for the spray itself, if I really had to try to reason out the skience (with a k), I'd say that it didn't make Owen immediately attracted to people he would otherwise find unattractive because the Alien Chemical's molecules bind to the skin of the first person they come in contact with, and that person's immune. That takes care of Owen. Then when Linda and Colin breathed in whatever short-range chemical was floating off Owen's skin, there's some kind of "secondary antibody" effect that takes them over and makes them magnetically attracted to Owen. (I can't believe I'm profaning real biological science here, but oh well.) While it would be more obvious if Owen had sprayed Linda and Colin instead and then they leapt on him, I still think the scene reads as chemically-assisted intoxication/rape.

Gwen explicitly does drug her boyfriend, now husband, once, and while it isn't for purposes of rape, I find it utterly reprehensible, but the way it was written showed me the writers seemed to think we should feel sorry for her.

Yes, this is a huge issue that's never resolved, and it's the major reason why I think their relationship should have ended. Honestly, with respect to both Gwen and Owen's actions, I think the writers really don't understand and have no interest in coming to grips with the concept of rape culture (among many, many other things).

From: [identity profile] lenora-rose.livejournal.com


Chris Chibnall shared his thoughts in an interview in TV Zone last week.

I saw that summary before. I'd like to hear the actual interview, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly how it went, since my opinion of Chibnall is pretty low. And my reaction is very much, "What, you couldn't see how it can be interpreted that way? And you won't apologize? Jerk."

Even with my choice to read it as they "meant", as scuzzy not-rape, I can very much see how it gets read the other way, and for that, a LOT of people are owed apologies and explanations. If I slip up an insult a friend, or friends, by accident, I still apologize.

if an artist's work shows something to their audience which isn't what the creator(s) consciously intended then that's not the audience's problem, it's either the artist's problem or society's problem or both.

Oh, hell, YES. It's the artist's problem. He wrote crappily. Which is why he should apologize for the crappy writing and for a scene which could turn one of his so-called heroes into an instant villain.

As for the skience, I think you're giving them too much credit in your explanation for even having thought it through that fr. I really think the whole skience of it is in fact meant to be hand-waved away as something vaguely magical (Except that fantasy writers think though their magic better than that).

You know, I may have to reconsider my interpretation of the scene. I still think there's room to try and read it as they intended, as not-rape, if you want to be kind, but you're making even more of a case for the rape side (especially in your comment at the very end about inducing the hallucinatory state) than I already considered extant.

The problem is, in the real world, the borderline is more complicated still, since there are women who've considered themselves raped with considerably less impairment than happens in the Torchwood scene. There are also women who've had sex under circumstances any court would accept as rape, who considered it nothing of the sort.

In both cases, I would say the potential victim has the right of it, emotionally at least. We can't deny the real damage the first feels -- or make the second agree that what happened was damage, if she doesn't feel it. It's messy and complex and nasty -- the more because if you do offer the first woman sympathy and comfort but accept the second one's not-rape interpretation, you can get accused of hypocrisy, of not taking rape seriously.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com


As for the skience, I think you're giving them too much credit in your explanation for even having thought it through that fr. I really think the whole skience of it is in fact meant to be hand-waved away as something vaguely magical (Except that fantasy writers think though their magic better than that).

I'm sure that's true. Sigh, whenever I think my standards for Torchwood couldn't get any lower, I have to readjust them again! (And I'm only kind of kidding about the standards, argh.)

The problem is, in the real world, the borderline is more complicated still, since there are women who've considered themselves raped with considerably less impairment than happens in the Torchwood scene. There are also women who've had sex under circumstances any court would accept as rape, who considered it nothing of the sort.

In both cases, I would say the potential victim has the right of it, emotionally at least. We can't deny the real damage the first feels -- or make the second agree that what happened was damage, if she doesn't feel it. It's messy and complex and nasty -- the more because if you do offer the first woman sympathy and comfort but accept the second one's not-rape interpretation, you can get accused of hypocrisy, of not taking rape seriously.


*nods* Ooh! I just remembered a couple of articles which I thought relevant to the points you've brought up. Links for your interest.

This one (http://ginmar.livejournal.com/1080262.html) reminded me of the hallucination scenario. A View From a Broad writes about a case in which a woman in Massachusetts "went to bed in the bedroom she shared with her boyfriend. A man—whom she thought to be her boyfriend, but was actually her boyfriend's brother—came into the bedroom and had sex with her." According to Massachusetts law, which defines rape as intercourse "by force and against [the] will" of the victim, this isn't rape. Link to the Feministing article in the post. I recommend the comments in ginmar's post (except for those of the anonymous troll, but the troll gets smacked down).

Alas! A Blog has an excellent entry, with sources, on "(seemingly) clear-cut cases in which the victim herself doesn't agree she was raped": Women Who Don't Call It Rape (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/01/26/women-who-dont-call-it-rape/). I recommend the comments, the majority of which seem thoughtful and interesting, as well as the Alas! series (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/category/feminism-sexism-etc/rape-intimate-violence-related-issues/mary-koss-controversy/) on the famous Koss study of rape incidence and unreported rape. More statistics on rape reporting here. (http://ifritah.livejournal.com/211376.html?thread=441520&format=light)

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com


There are also women who've had sex under circumstances any court would accept as rape, who considered it nothing of the sort.

With respect to this category in particular - I was looking through the Alas! article on "Women Who Don't Call It Rape" again, and I saw that Ampersand (the author) has this to say about it:

Why do some women not believe it’s rape unless she resisted - or not believe it’s rape when their husbands or boyfriends force them to have sex? There are lots of possible reasons, but let’s not forget the simple fact that women are part of our society. There are a lot of myths about rape which have currency in our society - all of society, not men exclusively. Neither being a woman nor being a rape victim will automatically prevent belief in those rape myths...

Does saying that women can be raped, without labeling the event as “rape,” contradict the feminist belief that women must be believed, in all circumstances? Well, insofar as such a belief exists, it contradicts it. But I doubt that belief exists among many feminists today...

The point is, when feminists say women who have been raped must be believed, that’s in a specific context of counteracting the traditional belief that women habitually falsely accuse men of rape (in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, rape “is an accusation easy to be made, hard to be proved, but harder to be defended by the party accused, though innocent”). But nothing in that context applies to women who - due to loyalty to the rapist, or acceptance of rape myths, or ignorance of the law, or any other reason - don’t recognize their own rapes as rapes. It’s ridiculous to believe, as some anti-feminists have suggested, that “believing women” means feminists are obligated to give men who have in fact committed rape a pass whenever the victim isn’t sure it’s rape.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com


I think the writers meant it to be like a faerie glamour; the girl looks again, and suddenly thinks, "Hey, this guy is like, the spitting image of every rock star I've ever fantasized about" and changes her mind. And the fact that it is depicted with an aerosol spray, which one can interpret as the other person breathing in as well, is creating an idea the writers didn't intend. Because people do think about the method of delivery.

If they had, instead, shown Owen swallowing a pill, and the same result on Linda and Colin's parts, it would be more clear it's non-rape.


I suppose I'd read it kind of like this:

A woman encounters a man, who she then hallucinates is someone else. When the man - in full knowledge of her hallucination - proposes sex, she agrees. Due to her mentally impaired state - even if that state is temporary - that alone could be grounds for legal allegations of sexual assault. However, suppose the man in fact induced her hallucinatory state via whatever means, deliberately and without her consent. That makes him even more culpable.

From: [identity profile] ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com


But I think there's a difference between "fans forgiving a character's crimes" and characters changing. I've really liked Jaime's arc (through the third book; I haven't read A Feast For Crows yet), and one thing I'm really enjoying is how Jaime is changing, from someone I found utterly unredeemable to someone I'm grudgingly developing sympathy for-- and it's not because the books have tried to convince me he's a fluffy misunderstood bunny; it's because he's starting to question his own actions and allegiances.

From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com


Oh, I find Jaime interesting, and I don't think the books are remotely forgiving of his crimes. The actual text very much shows it as a man who has done unredeemable things growing into a person who, while not necessarily "redeemable," is a better person than what he started as. But I've seen fans excuse *spoiler* of deserving what Jaime did to him, blaming everything he's done on Cersei's manipulations, etc. According to most of the fans I know, Jaime is misunderstood and can't be held accountable for anything he's done, and aren't he and Brienne the OTP to rule the universe? (I actually think theirs is possibly the most interesting relationship in the series because it's such a stark contrast of characters and she probably is the most "good" person he's ever met, certainly the first to ever matter to him-Tyrion is as good as he can be, but has been forced to give some of that up to survive-but according to most I know, it's a pure and redeeming love and Brienne will save the poor woobie from the evil Cersei's manipulations, which are solely responsible for everything he's done.)

From: [identity profile] ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com


But I've seen fans excuse *spoiler* of deserving what Jaime did to him, blaming everything he's done on Cersei's manipulations, etc. According to most of the fans I know, Jaime is misunderstood and can't be held accountable for anything he's done, and aren't he and Brienne the OTP to rule the universe?

Ah, okay. That's just crazy, and clearly I need to stay out of organized ASOIAF fandom for the sake of my blood pressure.

From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com


I pretty much stay out of the organized parts of all fandoms. I just lurk on the edges and grab the sane ones as they pass me by. Or at leastt he ones who somewhat match my type of insanity.

Most of the ASOIAF fans I know were already fans when I read the books early last year, and some of their posts that I read after getting caught up and their comments to me(actually, not so much the comments, as I tended to focus more on the Starks, since I really like their storylines) just kinda scared me. I know one person who has a series of posts about the nature of an OTP that's about Jaime.
octopedingenue: the worst thing about being spider-man is changing clothes a zillion times a day! (worst thing about being spider-man)

From: [personal profile] octopedingenue


(Hey, upon reflection he totally felt bad about throwing that baby out the second-story window! *likes Jaime but yeah*)

From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com


Well, sure, but only after endless prattling about howthere was nothing wrong with it. People had to also be ALMOST as mean to him before he realized "hey, maybe I shouldn't have tossed a kid out a window when he was just wandering around his house and probably had no clue what he saw anyway." (And yeah, I really have seen people say that it was Bran's own fault and Jaime didn't do anything wrong.)

Seriously, he crossed the uncrossable line for me geuinely LIKING the character, but he is extremely interesting...it's just that some of his fans have completely alienated me to him. If I thought for one second that GRRM viewed Jaime the way a lot of Jaime fans seem to, I'd have to drop the books. There's a huge difference between "poor woobie who just needs the love of a good woman" and "irredeemable but seeking redemption." (Also? In no universe will he ever be good enough for Brienne.)
ext_7025: (Boone)

From: [identity profile] buymeaclue.livejournal.com


Yes. I think what's interesting about Jaime is watching him go from someone I couldn't understand to someone I could. For people to try to turn that progression into oh-he's-a-good-guy-really actually strikes me as kind of...cheapening it.

From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com


Exactly. He's not misunderstood and he's not secretly nice...he's EXACTLY what he's portrayed as the first few books, it's just that he comes to realize that he could be something more, and better, than what he always has been. I think it's just a case of people thinking that he HAS to secretly be good or not as bad for them to be secure in saying they like him.

I also get annoyed that so many I know try to reduce his relationship with Brienne to a simple romance. Yes, it's the person and the relationship that changed his life and opened his eyes(well, that and the hand bit, but I doubt the hand would have had remotely the same affect without her) but saying that it's because she's his true love or that she's on a quest for him because she's besotted(mind you, I do think she's developed some sort of romantic feelings for him but I don't think for one minute that that would sway her if she didn't see something else...plus, she had other reasons not remotely related to him) is basically saying that the only way a woman can be important to a man is if she's his love interest.

It's annoying because you have these two complex characters with a complex relationship, and other, equally important ones, and it just gets reduced to good girl redeems misunderstood bad boy by so many people I know.

(Mind you, I have no idea if it's reflected in the fandom at large, because I haven't really looked into it, and most of these that I know are the corner of my f-list that's always largely focused on the canon het otp, but...)

From: [identity profile] dichroic.livejournal.com


Nice to see someone else saying that about 24. My husband watches it (actually, he considers it just about the right level of distractingness while on the rowing machine) and I finally had to tell him it was really bothering me on moral grounds. (Really the first time I can remember having that reaction, consistently, to a TV show.)

From: [identity profile] amadyce.livejournal.com


Season Two: Is it better artistically?

Yes and no. I liked season one though there were some rather clunky part, especially at the beginning of the season, (I was very unimpressed with the pilot.) And contrary to a lot of people's opinions, I loved the bronze bikini Cyberwoman ep. That's where my interest in the show really began to peak. Season 2 is definitely an improvement, buildning on what was good the first time around and reworking what wasn't. But, there still are some clunky parts now and again. But, oh ththe characters!

Does Jack's acting improve?

I think it has. I think Barrowman is more used to stage acting and tends to take some subtle moments up a notch or two too far. But he's also delivered some really great scens that really impressed me.

Does Ianto get more screentime, and was the fact that I liked him before just because he hadn't been onscreen long enough to be a loathsome rapist little-girl-murderer-approving scumbag?

Way more screen time. I can't say why you liked him but he doesn't become a rapist or approve of murdering little girls. I have to say though that I've never agreed with the "Owen is a rapist" theory and I didn't interpret Jack's reactions in the flashback to mean that he wasn't angry or disgusted by what one of his officers did. In fact, I thought he was angry and sad, but also thought it sad that the faeries had resorted to a sort of vendetta that solved nothing.

And, um, in which episodes do they make out, in case I only want to watch those?


S1 ep 4, though one-sided on Jack's part. Some of the stuff in season 2 gave more insight into that scene, IMO.
S1 ep 8 Not an actual liplock, but definite flirting and implied off-screen nookie.
S1 ep 12 Jack and another character in an incredibly romantic and well written ep. The best of series 1, IMO.
S1 ep 13
S2 ep1 Jack/other character. Hot!!
S2 ep 3 Jack/Ianto Hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
S2 ep 6 Nice hurt/comfort.
S2 ep 9 Awww! I don't want to ruin it, but it's so sweet.
S2 ep 11 Woah! Inflagrante!

From: [identity profile] lady-ganesh.livejournal.com


I agree with almost all of this. And yeah, I thought the flashback was more a 'war is hell and fairies really suck' thing; I understand the discomfort that they chose a POC as cannon fodder, though.

OMG MUST HURRY UP AND WATCH EP 11.

From: [identity profile] branna.livejournal.com


Actually, haven't seen Season Two and I'm not sure I want to. I metaphorically threw the series against the wall when Gwen proved that she was just a morally loathsome as the rest of that lot.



From: [identity profile] laurashapiro.livejournal.com


S2 really is better, a lot a lot. I bailed on S1 for pretty much all the same reasons you did, but I have liked most of S2 -- and I'm not even a Jack/Ianto shipper.

They actually put a lot of time and effort into what I think of as The Great Owen Redemption Arc this year. No, the rapist thing is never addressed, but the character is given a lot more dimension and you suddenly realize that, in fact, Burn Gorman can act circles around pretty much anyone else in the entire cast. So I currently enjoy watching Owen because the performance is excellent, and they made him suffer a lot, which makes me vengefully happy.

The team seems more competent and less hateful. The sexy is sexier, though Jack still isn't the Jack I love on DW (interestingly, when he showed up on DW this past year, he *was* that Jack -- it's only when the Doctor's around, I guess *g*). The writing is generally better.

The morality hasn't improved, but I think that's intentional, actually.

In conclusion: worth trying again.
ext_2958: The most kick-arse woman in comics. (Super Petrelli Bros)

From: [identity profile] jessibot.livejournal.com


Jack really is the worst thing about Torchwood. I have no idea what happened to his character between Doctor Who and Torchwood, it's like they sucked all charm right out of him. Plus, he has a massive Jesus complex, and I loathe that.

Yeah, it's just not good TV. In any way. I watch it for Ianto (who is massively improved in S2) and Rhys (who I adore beyond all reason), and also just to laugh at the consistently stupid plot. Fluff television at it's finest.

From: [identity profile] lady-ganesh.livejournal.com


I am so sad that Ryhs didn't dance with Ianto in the wedding episode. It would have been adorable.

From: [identity profile] majinkarp.livejournal.com


Season Two is all over the place. There are episodes that are markedly better than anything in Season One, but then there are quite a few epsiodes and scenes that are equally as bad. I've enjoyed the second season more, but then again, my expectations for Torchwood were pretty low by the time it started (plus it's a fix for my Doctor Who withdrawal). Cyberwoman still remains the low point of the entire series; my friends and I have started a drinking game around it.

In terms of characterization, in Season Two Ianto gets to be funny, Tosh is still way underutilized, and Owen becomes more interesting and likeable. I actually dislike Gwen in general, both because of her treatment of Rhys but also because I'm not overall impressed with the actress. That being said, I think Eve Myles' strength is comedy scenes, and she gets quite a few of those this season (see 2.9).

My personal favorite episodes of the season have been 2.3, 2.7, 2.9, 2.11, and 2.12. There is some important plot continuity stuff that happens midway through the season, so you may want to watch 2.6 and 2.8 as well.

From: [identity profile] jonquil.livejournal.com


There are no moral consequences to anything Torchwood does. Ever.

In S2 they kidnap a woman and torture her, onscreen. She attempts to appeal to her legal rights and is quashed. But it's okay because she turns out to be an alien.

From: [identity profile] lenora-rose.livejournal.com


There are two good episodes in season one: if you didn't see the one called Captain Jack Harkness, go look for it. (It's the same writer as Out of Time, and the only two episodes she wrote.)

I actually think the problem is the head writer, who couldn't, in season one, seem to tell the difference between "Jack is a rogue, and therefore not always morally right even though he means well" and "Jack is a rogue, and therefore has no morality or need for one, but he heads the Good Guys so it's Okay." (Ditto Owen)

Season two is better, overall; not lacking in clunkers, as others have said, but better. Both in story and in sometimes realising that bad behaviour is... bad. Not always, and not consistently enough, alas.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com

Torchwood: rape deniers, rape apologists, or both? (Late comment, but I had to share some news.)


S2 is better artistically; Jack's acting improves... a little. At this point I have to tell you that Chris Chibnall, who was responsible for the roofie rapist episode, shared his thoughts on the scene in an TV Zone interview last week. They ran like this:

They didn't intend it to be a depiction of date rape, it wasn't written, filmed or acted that way, they don't understand where that interpretation came from, and they have no regrets. (http://lizbee.livejournal.com/787713.html?format=light)

As spiralsheep comments, it's the law in Wales and England that drugging a non-consenting person for the purpose of having sex with him/her is rape, and if that drug didn't also drug the woman and man Owen wanted sex with then I don't understand what effected them into sudden compliance with Owen's wishes when they'd both been previously shown as non-compliant towards him. (http://lizbee.livejournal.com/787713.html?thread=8018177&format=light#t8018177)

As I replied, when Owen sprayed himself, they had to have breathed it in. There's no other cause-and-effect explanation. Therefore both the woman and her boyfriend were drugged, without their consent.

I don't think the writers or members of the audience would have to had sought help at a rape crisis center before understanding that if:

Person A walks into a bar and picks out a random Person B,
Person A approaches Person B for sex,
Person B explicitly says no thanks,
Person A sprays a chemical on himself (just before doing so, Person A trots out some of the same old tired self-justifying garbage employed by rapists everywhere: 'Look. I've got to be up early and I've got a hell of a day tomorrow and I really can't be bothered with all the chat.' (http://www.kilohoku.com/transcripts/tw/tw-1X01.html)),
Person B explicitly takes a deep breath and is unwittingly exposed to the chemical, then becomes intoxicated and compliant,
Person A leads Person B out of the bar for sex...
as liviapenn comments, that's not date rape, given that they're not even on a date. That's straight-up rape. It doesn't require violence, people!

It's - if possible - even clearer that this is a case of multiple rape when Owen runs into the boyfriend, Colin, who's hostile to the point of threatening an immediate punch-up. Owen sprays himself again, therefore exposing Colin to the chemical, and Colin becomes intoxicated and compliant. Owen immediately calls for a taxi.

I originally considered the possibility that Owen's experience in 1x03 witnessing rape and murder via alien device and apparently affected by the emotions of the victim meant the show was trying to address the issue, or show character growth. However, in 2x08 we have confirmation that Owen went through with it and raped Linda, because the shot of her kissing him post- alien roofie in the bar plays at exactly the moment when he's reminiscing warmly about "sex" (in a list of the delightful things his pre-zombie life contained). And as with all the other things on his list, he misses that tasty, tasty alien-roofie-assisted rape! I dare you to describe his tone of voice in that monologue as anything besides fond. It certainly isn't remorseful.

As spiralsheep notes, Torchwood (and apparently a significant number of its fans) espouses a common view of forced consent which makes many rapes difficult to prosecute in real court cases with real juries made up of ordinary people.

From: [identity profile] ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com

Other notes on Torchwood


Ianto does get more screentime, and the fact that you liked him is not just because he's not a rapist like Owen! However... I didn't get all the way through 2x02 (the episode where Torchwood kidnaps and tortures a black woman) because I couldn't make it through another episode of "monstrous black woman is killed for the good of the world," but Ianto - not unlike the rest of the crew, I might add - doesn't come off too well there. Just after Jack's first session threatening the woman and denying her appeal to legal rights, Jack and Ianto smilingly flirt about whether Jack's demeanor is intimidating enough.

I was also irate at the flashback to India, in which Jack is command of a troop of British evil colonialist oppressors soldiers. One of them gets drunk and runs over a little girl and kills her. Does Jack care? Does he punish the soldier for killing a little girl? No! He merrily lets him merrily continue along his way, and then is very very sad when supernatural revenge kills the little-girl murderer along with lots of collateral damage to the rest of the soldiers. However, since none of the other soldiers care one bit that one of them is a little-girl-killer, I felt that they all deserved what they got.

I am 100 percent behind your reaction here. Having watched to the end of S2, I can tell you that the reasons to kick Jack in the head mount up.

But then last night I remembered that telophase had said that this one episode, "Out of Time," was really good, and I watched it, and it was really good. Even though it made out like Owen the rapist was some kind of good guy.

Yeah, it was a really good episode, even though I still despise Owen.
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