rachelmanija: Fucking new guy hates my favorite rabbit book (FNG Hates My Rabbit Book)
rachelmanija ([personal profile] rachelmanija) wrote2022-06-16 11:56 am
Entry tags:

So THAT'S what was going on!

There's a funny bit in Biggles Fails To Return in which Ginger, impersonating a Spanish onion-seller in Monaco, shares some bread and an onion with a local. The local nearly spits out the onion, appalled at its sharpness, and asks Ginger where the heck they came from. Ginger is forced to quickly come up with an explanation of why he has English onions rather than the presumably sweeter Spanish ones.

I've been reading books for more than forty years, and this is the first time I realized that when characters take nothing but a loaf of bread and a raw onion as journey provisions, or eat bread and a raw onion for lunch, they're eating something like a sweet Vidalia onion, not the onions that make your eyes water and would be torture to eat whole and raw. I did vaguely wonder why they were always eating raw onions rather than, say, a raw turnip that at least wouldn't be actively painful to eat, but I supposed, without really pausing to interrogate it, that people in times past were so horrendously deprived that eating a raw onion for lunch barely registered!

This made me think about other bits in books that make more sense with context, whether that context is new information, other books, or just more life experience.

In The Once and Future King, the boy Wart, who will become King Arthur, is going on and on about the glory of fighting. Merlyn argues with him, then "seems to change the subject" and asks Wart which he had liked better, the ants or the wild geese. The chapter ends there. When I read the book as a child, I took that literally: Merlyn was frustrated with the Wart and changed the subject.

When I re-read the book as an adult, I realized that the geese were peaceful and didn't believe in national boundaries, and the ants were totalitarian and had the motto "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." Merlyn wasn't changing the subject, he was winning the argument... but the Wart, like me, missed the point.

More recently, I listened to Watership Down on audio, read by Peter Capaldi. I had mixed feelings about his performance, but while listening I suddenly understood something that I never had before, and I must have read that book twenty times.

In the warren of the shining wires, Silverweed recites a poem. It's quite beautiful and initially seems fantastical, with a rabbit asking to accompany the stream and become rabbit-of-the-water, accompany the falling leaves and become rabbit-of-the-earth, accompany the wind and become rabbit-of-the-wind. Finally, he openly asks to join Frith and die. Fiver is horrified at the poem (the others don't understand it) and says it's taking something true (all rabbits must die) and making it into something twisted and perverse (making the pursuit of death seem beautiful).

I always wondered about that poem. The final verse is straightforwardly what Fiver says the whole poem is about, but the earlier verses aren't clearly about death - they seem much more in the vein of other rabbit legends where magical things happen. I had puzzled over it, and finally decided that they're in the real world, so asking to be a magical being like a rabbit of the water or a rabbit of the earth was asking to go to the magical realm after death. But that never felt quite satisfactory to me.

Then, listening to Capaldi read the poem, I suddenly understood. Silverweed is talking very poetically about something that isn't a fantasy or metaphor at all. When he says he wants to go down with the leaves and be rabbit of the earth, he means that he wants to die and have his body decay and literally become part of the earth, and eventually, as it breaks down more and more, the water and the air. No wonder Fiver was horrified!

Have you ever understood things in books long after you first read them?
swan_tower: The Long Room library at Trinity College, Dublin (Long Room)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-06-16 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Probably because of how young I was when I first read it, it took me an embarrassingly long time to notice the plot relevance of the pictures Polly helps Tom pick out in Fire and Hemlock.

I also didn't get the onion thing for the longest time. In the movie Holes, they just start chowing down on onions and smiling, and even though I think they say the onions are sweet, it made no sense to me. I knew onions came in different colors, but since I didn't start cooking until a few years ago, I paid zero attention before then to the difference in taste.
swan_tower: The Long Room library at Trinity College, Dublin (Long Room)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-06-18 05:30 am (UTC)(link)
"Plot relevance" might be the wrong phrase for it? The pictures foreshadow -- or rather, given the way the book works, probably bring about -- things that happen later in Tom's life. The people playing violins = his string quartet; the Chinese horse picture = the horse he helps rescue; the fairground is the place he gets injured; the pink-and-blue Harlequins are probably related to Polly's pantomime, etc.
pauraque: bird flying (Default)

[personal profile] pauraque 2022-06-16 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)
When I reread Dogsbody by Diana Wynne Jones, I realized there were a number of things I hadn't fully understood when I read it as a kid. One that went completely over my head was why Sirius went into a panic when the kids tried to give him a bath. I thought it was just that dogs sometimes don't like baths, and it only dawned on me as an adult that he was afraid of the water because he'd nearly drowned earlier in the book.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I was coming here to talk about Dogsbody!

I was flipping through it the a few nights ago at dinner, and the final few paragraphs finally make sense to me!














SPOILERS












“I was just thinking—just noticing—” said Kathleen, “that Sirius needed me to look after him whatever shape he was. Only I didn’t notice.”

“Where there’s need enough, a way can often be found,” Miss Smith observed.

*

Polaris often remarks to Sol that Sirius loses his temper much less often these days. But the one sure way to send him into a flaming rage is to suggest that he find a new Companion. Sirius will not hear of it. The small white sphere circling his goes untenanted, because he hopes that what Miss Smith said is true.


I concluded Sirius was keeping the spot open because he was waiting for someone to come along who would look after him, and that if he went looking, that would defeat the purpose.

I found this both slightly confusing--if you're waiting for a new Companion to come along, why would you fly into a temper at the suggestion of getting a new Companion?--and also incredibly unsatisfying.

It...never occurred to me that Kathleen could end up his Companion, and that that's what he's holding out for.

That solves both of my problems!
pauraque: bird flying (Default)

[personal profile] pauraque 2022-06-17 03:09 am (UTC)(link)
That was another one that went over my head! Probably because there's no indication in the rest of the book for such a thing to be possible, for a mortal to take on that role.

I think I was also a little confused about why Kathleen was treated so poorly, because as an American kid in the 1980s I had no real life knowledge of anti-Irish prejudice. I got some idea of what was going on but without the cultural context it was hard for me to wrap my mind around it.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 02:02 am (UTC)(link)
I agree completely, there's nothing about the worldbuilding that makes that an obvious reading at all. It feels like the reader is left in the last three paragraphs going, "Oh...are you saying that's a thing?" I admit, I'm not a fan of the way that was handled, but I am a fan of Kathleen-as-Companion, now that I know that it's a possibility! Some random companion was never going to be narratively satisfying.

as an American kid in the 1980s I had no real life knowledge of anti-Irish prejudice.

Ah, that I got, because I didn't read this book until high school. At that point I was obsessively studying European history, and Ireland and England were among my main focuses. But it's definitely not common knowledge in the US! (I made a throwaway comment once to one of my coworkers about religious conflicts in Ireland, and he was like "...I take it that's a thing?")
cupcake_goth: (Vampire Governess)

[personal profile] cupcake_goth 2022-06-16 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I have read Dracula more times than I can count, and it was only in one of the recent rereads that I caught a line in one of Jack Seward's journal entries: [Renfield speaking]"I shall be patient, Master. It is coming -- it is coming -- it is coming!" So I took the hint, and came too.

ORLY, DR. SEWARD?
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-16 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sure I've had this experience frequently when reading books as an adult that I had originally read as a child, though I don't have a lot of specific examples that come to mind. It's often things like having insight into character motivations that I didn't have the experience to understand before. One that I do remember was that I somehow read a number of Dick Francis books as a young teen without ever picking up that they're set in England - I read a lot of horse books at that age, and I just somehow assumed that it was the Kentucky-Tennessee horse racing region, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. When I first read one of his books as an adult, within about three pages I was like "huh, he's writing about England this time" ... and then caught on that they're all set in England (very obviously so), but apparently every last geographical clue completely flew over my head at age 13.
darchildre: a candle in the dark.  text:  "a light in dark places". (Default)

[personal profile] darchildre 2022-06-16 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
The Christian allegory nature of Narnia went completely over my head when I read the books as a child. I was raised Methodist, went to church every week, knew about Jesus, all that jazz, and totally missed who and what Aslan was supposed to be. In fact, I misread the books so badly that they accidentally became the impetus for my first early fumblings with the ideas of polytheism and nature worship. It was very "Aslan is clearly a god, and he's obviously not Jesus because he's a big talking lion and they would have told me in Sunday School if Jesus was a big fuckoff lion, so there could be gods that aren't Jesus. And also here's Bacchus over here, that's cool, tell me what a naiad is again?" This was all very formative.

And then I reread the books later throughout my childhood, with a much greater understanding of how symbolism and allegory work and realized that they were Christian as hell (if you'll pardon the pun) but it was too late - C S Lewis had already made me a pagan.
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-16 08:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh yeah, I definitely had no clue about the Christian allegory elements of Narnia either! As well as missing Aslan's significance totally, I was also confused and annoyed by the series-ending apocalypse, and only ever read that book once.

they would have told me in Sunday School if Jesus was a big fuckoff lion

I didn't have a Christian upbringing as such, but I feel as if this would have likely improved the experience.
darchildre: a candle in the dark.  text:  "a light in dark places". (Default)

[personal profile] darchildre 2022-06-16 08:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I've never cared for The Last Battle much either but it also didn't help with the incipient paganism, with its discussion of "if you do good stuff in the name of Tash, you're actually doing it for Aslan". Which mostly led to tiny!me interpreting Tash as an aspect of Aslan and thereby reinventing soft polytheism.
sholio: Chess queen looking horrified (Chess piece oh noes)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-16 08:49 pm (UTC)(link)
"CS Lewis introduced me to paganism" - not the legacy he would have wanted, but the legacy he deserves. XD
sovay: (Haruspex: Autumn War)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-16 09:06 pm (UTC)(link)
"CS Lewis introduced me to paganism" - not the legacy he would have wanted, but the legacy he deserves.

+1.

(At the time when I first read the Chronicles of Narnia, I knew far more about numerous other mythologies than I did about Christianity, so the concept of Aslan as Christ analogue did not occur to me when the sacrifice and return of Aslan as solstitial ritual—it happens at midwinter! in the darkest part of the night! he comes back with the sun!—was right there.)
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)

[personal profile] cofax7 2022-06-18 12:26 am (UTC)(link)
That was exactly my experience as well. I'd read so much mythology by the time I read Narnia, that it just read like, "Oh, this is another one of those sacrificial themes that show up in Sutcliff and Renault, cool!" I was 15 or so before I realized it was all explicitly, overtly, Christian. So disappointing.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
+1
adrian_turtle: (Default)

[personal profile] adrian_turtle 2022-06-17 03:14 am (UTC)(link)
The series-ending apocalypse made me think it was an allegory based on Norse mythology. Which I knew more about than Christianity. It seemed obvious, "Aslan" being the lion of "Asgard."
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-17 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
I feel as if this subthread handily points out the problem with pinning the theme of the book on allegorical allusions.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 09:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I figured they were like the Valar, which I had slotted into "like the Greek gods", and thus happily accepted the works of Tolkien and Lewis as polytheistic. Iluvatar was analogous to Zeus, not God.

My upbringing wasn't quite as thoroughly Christian as yours, but enough--the missing piece was symbolism/allegory, not religion!

"Aslan is clearly a god, and he's obviously not Jesus because he's a big talking lion and they would have told me in Sunday School if Jesus was a big fuckoff lion, so there could be gods that aren't Jesus.

*nod* This probably wasn't my exact chain of reasoning, but something like it. I knew God wasn't a lion, and that fantasy worlds had other gods, so this was just more of same. Monotheism, what's that?

The Death Gate Cycle *also* leans subtly monotheistic, and I missed that too. More polytheism!

Young me: What do you mean, "Our mistake was in thinking we were gods?" Clearly you're gods! Look at you!

Lol forever.
darchildre: a candle in the dark.  text:  "a light in dark places". (Default)

[personal profile] darchildre 2022-06-17 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
Ahahaha, I was super into Death Gate in middle school (I had a whole Margaret-Weis-and-Tracy-Hickman thing) and the monotheism escaped me there as well.
lilacsigil: Hermionie Granger, "Hooray Books" (hermione)

[personal profile] lilacsigil 2022-06-17 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
I was also into Margaret-Weis-and-Tracy-Hickman and remember getting deeply annoyed when one god (who vaguely corresponded with the nicer parts of the Christian one) was made more important than the others. No! Polytheism or bust!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 01:19 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, hi! I was super into Death Gate in middle school! I never tried Dragonlance, though, which would have been the obvious next thing to try.

When the first Sovereign Stone book came out when I was in high school, I really liked that one, but I didn't like the sequels.

What other books of theirs did you like?
darchildre: a candle in the dark.  text:  "a light in dark places". (Default)

[personal profile] darchildre 2022-06-18 01:33 am (UTC)(link)
It was mostly Dragonlance, to be honest. My local bookstore had a huge number of Dragonlance books that were $4.99 each (early 90s, grew up in a state with no sales tax), so I calculated all my birthday money for years in terms of how many Dragonlance novels I could buy. The Weis & Hickman Legends trilogy was the first of those I bought (which, in retrospect, was a really confusing place to start getting into Dragonlance, as it's very much a sequel) and I adored them, which led to me prioritizing those authors whenever I bought new books in the series. And then I found the Death Gate books and loved those too, but my bookstore/library didn't have any of their other works, so I pretty much stopped there.

I've gotten rid of most of my Dragonlance collection now, but I still have the Legends trilogy. I haven't read it (or Death Gate) in years, though - I'm too afraid the Suck Fairy has visited them - but I can't get rid of them due to sentiment.
darchildre: a candle in the dark.  text:  "a light in dark places". (Default)

[personal profile] darchildre 2022-06-18 02:01 am (UTC)(link)
That is excellent to know - thank you!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
My local bookstore also had a lot of Dragonlance books! Though I don't remember how much because I never calculated how many I could buy. ;)

The bookstore was Hastings, which was a really nice store because they put lots of chairs throughout the books section and basically encouraged you to read without buying. You can imagine that made my 10-13-year-old allowance-less bookworm self happy as a clam. I think it was good marketing on their part, as any money I did acquire promptly went to them.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't read it (or Death Gate) in years, though - I'm too afraid the Suck Fairy has visited them - but I can't get rid of them due to sentiment.

I have a fairly high tolerance for authorial BS, so take this with a grain of salt, but Death Gate has definitely held up for me! As Rachel says, fun and inventive within genre boundaries. I still reread it periodically.
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-19 05:23 am (UTC)(link)
Same; I still really love it. The places where it hits my id, it still hits hard, and the worldbuilding is a fun kind of totally bananas.
sheron: RAF bi-plane doodle (Johns) (Default)

[personal profile] sheron 2022-06-20 03:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm reading Death Gate now for the first time and really enjoying them! (Religious themes are ignorable!)
sheron: RAF bi-plane doodle (Johns) (Default)

[personal profile] sheron 2022-06-20 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, same! I posted this below without details, but basically I assumed that this was a universe where there wasn't a Christian God because there were pagan deities like the Winter Queen and Aslan. Lol
minoanmiss: A detail of the Ladies in Blue fresco (Default)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2022-06-20 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
"Aslan is clearly a god, and he's obviously not Jesus because he's a big talking lion and they would have told me in Sunday School if Jesus was a big fuckoff lion, so there could be gods that aren't Jesus. And also here's Bacchus over here, that's cool, tell me what a naiad is again?" This was all very formative.

That is truly awesome.
sovay: (Rotwang)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-16 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Have you ever understood things in books long after you first read them?

Absolutely. It's one of the reasons I enjoy talking about childhood re-reads or touchstones with other people. I read a ton of formative books when very young and stuff is still falling into place all the time. This is an excruciatingly old post, but gives a pretty decent history of the phenomenon with DWJ's Howl's Moving Castle (1986). Since making that post, it has also registered on me that it's hilarious that Wales is the secondary world from Sophie's perspective, given how often Wales is/was associated with the fantastic in children's and YA literature and here the point is that it's relentlessly mundane, at least to Howl and the reader in the know, however strange it is to Sophie interpreting it through her own lens of Ingary. Also I did not know when I was in elementary school that DWJ had not written John Donne's "Song," but that was a recurring feature with quotations.

I think it's really cool that Capaldi's delivery was what made Silverweed's poem click.
Edited 2022-06-16 21:09 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I like how 4 of the first 7 comments are DWJ. :)
sovay: (Rotwang)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-16 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I like how 4 of the first 7 comments are DWJ.

I almost used Peter Beagle!
cyphomandra: boats in Auckland Harbour. Blue, blocky, cheerful (boats)

[personal profile] cyphomandra 2022-06-17 09:10 am (UTC)(link)
Most appropriately following your link here has informed me of the original source of the “I am the womb of every holt” poem from Susan Cooper!
sovay: (I Claudius)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-17 05:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Most appropriately following your link here has informed me of the original source of the “I am the womb of every holt” poem from Susan Cooper!

Hooray!

I found out from paging randomly through a book of Robert Graves' poetry in a used book store and the top of my head quietly blew off.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
If I say this is me and every single book I've ever read or ever will read, that's probably an exaggeration, but, uh, yeah, it happens to me a lot.

I made this post about this subject, with several examples, and this one on American Gods.

It's how [personal profile] cahn and I met! If it weren't for Cahn, I still wouldn't know those two characters were the same person.

I hit another one a few days ago, in Little Town on the Prairie (I get bored while I eat, so I like to use my phone at the dinner table to flip through old favorites that I don't have to concentrate on):

“Well,” Laura began; then she stopped and spun around and round, for the strong wind blowing against her always made the wires of her hoop skirt creep slowly upward under her skirts until they bunched around her knees. Then she must whirl around and around until the wires shook loose and spiraled down to the bottom of her skirts where they should be.

As she and Carrie hurried on she began again. “I think it was silly, the way they dressed when Ma was a girl, don’t you? Drat this wind!” she exclaimed as the hoops began creeping upward again.

Quietly Carrie stood by while Laura whirled. “I’m glad I’m not old enough to have to wear hoops,” she said. “They’d make me dizzy.”

“They are rather a nuisance,” Laura admitted. “But they are stylish, and when you’re my age you’ll want to be in style.”


I always thought Laura was being incredibly oblivious, and, like...she was. But I'm now convinced there's no way that juxtaposition wasn't intentional humor on the part of adult Laura and/or Rose!
sovay: (I Claudius)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-16 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
It's how cahn and I met! If it weren't for Cahn, I still wouldn't know those two characters were the same person.

Thank you for reminding me to check out the Tillerman cycle the next time I am at an accommodating library. I haven't read any of the books since fifth grade and I don't believe I read all of them even so.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
If you like cross-referencing, the tag at that link has me and [personal profile] cahn rereading the whole series and cross-referencing every single thing we could come up with! We actually came up with another cross reference in some random post 2 weeks ago--we do it periodically!

the next time I am at an accommodating library

Do you do Kindle? I'm happy to gift a copy of whichever book you were planning to start with!
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-16 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Reading your post on Thomas Covenant gave me a brand new thought about Covenant, though it doesn't really fit the theme of Rachel's post; it's a new thought for me, but it's more like "people might not have known this when the book was published but now we do."

I read the first book a looong time ago, and noped out hard, so it's always possible that I'm misremembering a lot of it, but one thing I think was explicitly canon is that Covenant's general horribleness was justified (at least by Covenant) because he believed that he was dreaming and therefore it didn't matter what he did to the people around him. I found him incredibly unpleasant and the book unnerved me on a fundamental level, but I didn't really have a framework for arguing with its basic premise. But now I do, and it is this:

We actually have a couple decades' worth of evidence now of exactly how people behave in dream worlds where they know nothing is real, because of video games. And most people actually do not go around indiscriminately being a dick to and/or slaughtering NPCs who aren't trying to attack you, even though they could. I mean, doing an occasional run through a game in "kill everything" mode doesn't mean you're a sociopath, but in general, the less realistic a video game avatar is, the easier it is to be mean to it (if they're highly pixelated and barely human-looking, it's easier than being mean to a very realistic in-game child, for example). Most people do not, in fact, tromp around in video games being horrible to every NPC they encounter, and people who tend to do that also tend to be unpleasant edgelords in real life. And we KNOW video game characters aren't real, whereas Covenant is just guessing!

tl;dr No, Covenant, most people would not in fact be terrible to people in their dreamworld just because they can; that's on you.
Edited 2022-06-16 21:47 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I mean, my fantasy life consists of a self-insert being horrible to everyone she meets that she doesn't immediately kill, and it is amaaaaazing to have that license to do it, but yeah, I've seen some of the same studies you're talking about, and people don't generally do it in video games. Maybe the difference is that I'm secretly horrible Covenant and video game players don't have (conscious) control over the other people, and thus (should) react to them like actual living beings?
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-17 02:04 am (UTC)(link)
I'd be way more likely to forgive Thomas Covenant for being Thomas Covenant if he was genuinely dreaming and therefore had only the minimal control over things that people have in dreams. Everybody does some messed-up stuff in their actual dreams. I cannibalized my boyfriend in a dream one time; I made soup out of him! (And then woke up and was like, well, that was weird and also kind of Freudian.)
sheron: RAF bi-plane doodle (Johns) (Default)

[personal profile] sheron 2022-06-20 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
D:

LOL
minoanmiss: detail of a Minoan jug, c1600 ice (Minoan bird)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2022-06-20 07:00 pm (UTC)(link)
*cheers*
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-06-23 05:43 am (UTC)(link)
Haha, my first thought on this was "anything from the Tillerman saga" and "anything by John M. Ford." I'm guaranteed not to have understood it the first time around :)

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-24 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I was remembering specifically the bit that you and I talked about, where Gram says Mina came in through the back door, and then hastily adds, "Not what you're thinking."

It drove me crazy because I was like, "WHAT? What is she thinking??! Why are you not telling me, author?"

Many years later, I learned that having to go through the back door was something used to segregate and demean black people, and some years after that, it occurred to me to apply that knowledge in the context of this passage, with its white Gram and black Mina.

As I recall, you actually got this one from the beginning, since you grew up in the South!
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-06-27 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
I mean, also I read it first as an adult! I'm pretty sure I would not have gotten it had I read it as a kid/teenager (as a teenager I would have known the contextual fact of separate entrances for black people, but would probably not have realized that it applied here.)
sabotabby: (books!)

CN: adult male writer talking about a teenage girl in a gross and very sexualized way

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-16 09:08 pm (UTC)(link)
This is the dumbest example but I might as well confess.

Exodus by Leon Uris, in addition to being a work of horrific propaganda, had this weird line right in the beginning where a male character is thinking about a female character who got hot. He describes a bunch of puberty-type changes and then says "the sweater popped out and the ugly duckling became a swan."

This line absolutely baffled me as a 12-year-old because I couldn't really conceive of sweaters being a sexy garment, and I just envisioned this girl suddenly deciding to pop a sweater out of her drawer because it had been too sexy to wear before? Or maybe she'd been tucking it into her jeans and now she was not doing that anymore, but that still didn't read as more sexy, though keep in mind that grunge fashions were becoming a thing around this time.

It took me until adulthood to realize that this was about (I should reiterate, a teenage girl) growing boobs that made her sweater "pop out."

Fuck that was a bad book.
sabotabby: (books!)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-16 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, this is a less embarrassing one. I got a lot of the humour in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy even though I read it first as a little kid, but not everything, and this was before there was an internet so I couldn't look stuff up that I didn't understand.

So this line:

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”

I didn't know that what we call crosswalks are called zebra crossings in the UK and I was confused at why there were special places for zebras to cross the road, as I was pretty sure there weren't a significant number of them in England.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-16 10:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I have a whole distinct sub-category for "things I didn't get because I didn't realize the author was assuming a British pronunciation"!
sabotabby: (books!)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-16 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, that too.
telophase: (Default)

[personal profile] telophase 2022-06-21 04:18 pm (UTC)(link)
The one I remember is from one of the Mary Poppins books, when Jane and Michael attend the celestial circus, and there's a joke told about chicks and eggs whose punchline is "Look at the orange marmalade!" I sort of got it--I understood that it meant "Mama laid," but puzzled over how they got from "marmalade" to "Mama laid" for YEARS before learning the British pronunciation.

I will also mention that at the time I first read the book I lived in Tanzania, formerly a part of British East Africa, and had frequent contact with British expats and researchers, so I really do not understand how I missed the pronunciation.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-21 04:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I did read the Mary Poppins books, once long ago in elementary school, so no doubt I missed this too! But since I didn't reread them, it just fell into the "books are sometimes confusing" category and not the "years later I figured it out" category.

The one that drove me the craziest is from When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit: we get four lines of poetry from our 10-year-old protagonist, in which she rhymes "Sarah" and "wearer." I could not figure out if we were supposed to think:

a) She is not very good at rhyming and probably not as good at writing as she thinks she is.
or
b) She is sophisticated enough to write non-rhyming poetry.

It drove me crazy that the author was obviously trying to tell us something here, but I couldn't figure out what!

Many years later, I discovered the author was British, and some years after *that* it dawned on me that this is a perfectly good rhyme in British English. And then I remembered that even for most Americans, "wearer" and "Sarah" are closer to rhyming than they are for my family, which rhymes "wear" with "hear" rather than "bear".
affreca: Cat Under Blankets (Default)

[personal profile] affreca 2022-06-16 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
You're not the only one with that one. In my twenties when I learned about zebra crossings. I had just imagined large zebra migration.
sabotabby: (lolmarx)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-16 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
SAME!
grayswandir: An etching of the fall of Satan. (Paradise Lost)

[personal profile] grayswandir 2022-06-16 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't know that what we call crosswalks are called zebra crossings in the UK

Well, I learned something today!

What's funny is, I never even thought that line in Hitchhiker's Guide seemed strange. After all, it's a comment about "Man" as a universal archetype, not modern-day city-dwelling man, so the presence of zebras didn't seem odd to me at all. I'm pretty sure I thought the joke was that Man would get trampled by a stampede of zebras (representing obvious black-and-white reality) due to having gotten too clever and forfeited basic good sense -- something like the proverbial absent-minded philosopher types who tend to fall into ditches while looking at the stars. Admittedly, it's unclear how mixing up black and white would cause any confusion about zebras, of all things! But still, knowing that a zebra crossing is just a crosswalk makes the whole thing a lot more mundane. (Which fits with Adams' style -- conversations with God dropping suddenly into comic bathos -- it just wasn't what I got from the passage before!)
sabotabby: (books!)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-16 11:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't think it was particularly strange for that reason, but I was picturing the stampede not a car hitting him.
adrian_turtle: (Default)

[personal profile] adrian_turtle 2022-06-17 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
I join the chorus of Americans who didn't get that one as adults. I also thought Adams was talking about dedicated places for zebras to cross the road. (Like deer crossings, presumably.)
sabotabby: (books!)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-17 11:31 am (UTC)(link)
Yes! But enough of them to trample someone.
cyphomandra: boats in Auckland Harbour. Blue, blocky, cheerful (boats)

[personal profile] cyphomandra 2022-06-17 09:21 am (UTC)(link)
I am sure it will not help at all to add that the UK also has pelican crossings (controlled by traffic lights with push buttons, whereas a zebra crossing has Belisha beacons), puffin crossings (intelligent pelicans) and toucan crossings (bikes and people). I expect the after hours social events at the ministry of transport are just wild :D
sabotabby: (lolmarx)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-06-17 11:32 am (UTC)(link)
Today I learned a thing.

How can one country be so whimsical and yet make the political choices it does???
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)

[personal profile] rydra_wong 2022-06-17 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Racism, usually.

(I over-simplify for comedic effect. Sometimes it's other forms of bigotry instead.)
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)

[personal profile] sholio 2022-06-17 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay this is delightful. :DDDD I knew about zebra crossings (because of the stripes, I assumed?) but I didn't know about the others!
sheron: RAF bi-plane doodle (Johns) (Default)

[personal profile] sheron 2022-06-20 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
This is so cute! I knew about zebra crossings but the others...! :D
cyphomandra: fractured brooding landscape (Default)

[personal profile] cyphomandra 2022-06-16 09:31 pm (UTC)(link)
There’s a bit in an Antonia Forest book where a character appears to get away with something and someone yells that they will get him tomorrow, and then the narrative says “but once in every lifetime, tomorrow never comes”. I interpreted this as some sort of vague aphorism about evading consequences and (despite subsequent plot events, which should have given me a strong hint!) it was years later that I realised she meant death.
cyphomandra: boats in Auckland Harbour. Blue, blocky, cheerful (boats)

[personal profile] cyphomandra 2022-06-16 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, when I was about 8, I read a Larry Niven short story that had a line that went something like “Ever make love to a beautiful woman with a purse in your mouth? Unforgettable. Don’t try it if you have asthma.” and for quite some time I had very confused ideas about what asthma was :D
carbonel: Beth wearing hat (Default)

[personal profile] carbonel 2022-06-17 03:39 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure it's worth explaining, but...

The basic idea was that Earth was so overpopulated that pickpocketing was legal (mostly because there was too much of it to be feasible to prosecute). So Beowulf Schaeffer asks his girlfriend if he can steal her coin purse. And she says only if he can hide it on his body. And they're both naked at the time. So he puts it in his mouth as a joke. And then they carry on making love.
cyphomandra: boats in Auckland Harbour. Blue, blocky, cheerful (boats)

[personal profile] cyphomandra 2022-06-17 09:18 am (UTC)(link)
Aha someone who has read it as well!! I haven’t read it for years but that sequence certainly stayed with me.
carbonel: Beth wearing hat (Default)

[personal profile] carbonel 2022-06-17 02:26 pm (UTC)(link)
There was a period where Larry Niven was one of my favorite SF writers and I reread his stuff way too many times -- at least partly for lack of other material. And then...he wasn't.
meara: (Default)

[personal profile] meara 2022-06-17 01:39 am (UTC)(link)
…what the heck? Does he mean like, pursing your lips? Because I don’t know what the heck else a purse in your mouth would refer to??
cyphomandra: boats in Auckland Harbour. Blue, blocky, cheerful (boats)

[personal profile] cyphomandra 2022-06-17 09:04 am (UTC)(link)
I think maybe a small coin purse held between the teeth? Definitely a real object though, I can remember them talking about it.

(I may have to track down the story and check - it’s Larry Niven’s Flatlander, which I read along with a variety of equally unsuitable for age pieces on a collection called Seven Trips Through Time and Space)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 01:16 am (UTC)(link)
That reminds me that all my reading of old-fashioned novels, like the Narnia books, where "making love" was something quite different and more child-friendly, meant that I was terribly confused by my parents' censoring a song that contained the phrase "made love." Lucy makes love to the giants in The Silver Chair! Why am I not allowed to listen to this one song out of the whole CD?!

Only many years later did I understand that one.
ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2022-06-19 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
Jill, I think you mean, but yeah.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-19 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
Gah, yes! Thank you.
ratcreature: What? Who? When? Yes, I have been living under a rock... (under a rock)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2022-06-16 10:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I never realized eating raw onions is some kind of trope. I don't think I ever noticed that in a book. Now I wonder whether translators specify the kind of onion they mean when translating that (in German the sweeter ones are generally called "Gemüsezwiebel" i.e. vegetable onion, while the default onion is the English type).

I don't often reread books, so I probably don't realize what I missed. I can't think of concrete examples, but not infrequently I've only picked up that something was some kind of cultural reference I've been unaware if after seeing it multiple times. Like Dr. Seuss books or such. Those aren't a childhood classic here, so I just had never heard of these. And sometimes it's obvious that something is a reference you are missing, but often I just don't notice. Especially pre-google I could have really used the thing you get with some older classic literature editions, where they have footnotes pointing out everyday reference contemporaries would just have known as their pop culture.
sovay: (Morell: quizzical)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-16 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
but I supposed, without really pausing to interrogate it, that people in times past were so horrendously deprived that eating a raw onion for lunch barely registered!

I meant to add that I don't like any raw onion regardless of sweetness or sharpness—I will pick slices of raw Vidalia off a sandwich just as carefully as slices of red onion—so it never occurred to me to think very much about people eating onions raw in stories, since I had written it off as just another thing that other people I liked and I didn't, and therefore I might also have made Ginger's mistake.
meara: (Default)

[personal profile] meara 2022-06-17 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
Me too—I think I just figured if I ever saw that it was more “British people and old timey people are weird (to my Midwestern childhood brain) things like eels and kidney, so why not a raw onion?” I still don’t understand someone eating an onion sandwich. Ick.
mrissa: (Default)

[personal profile] mrissa 2022-06-17 12:04 pm (UTC)(link)
YES THIS
ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2022-06-19 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
I always thought it was a lie that "sweet" onions were particularly sweet. People used to claim that if you had your eyes shut and maybe your nose pinched you couldn't tell the difference between apple and Walla Walla onion, and I tried it multiple times and always could. So knowing it was sweet onion didn't much help me understand the bread-and-onions trope. (I do like cheese and raw-onion sandwiches, with whatever sort of onion is handy, but I have stopped eating them unless I am going to be on my own for at least a day afterward.)
sovay: (What the hell ass balls?!)

[personal profile] sovay 2022-06-19 03:29 am (UTC)(link)
People used to claim that if you had your eyes shut and maybe your nose pinched you couldn't tell the difference between apple and Walla Walla onion, and I tried it multiple times and always could.

I was also told, as a classroom illustration of the importance of the sense of smell, that if you closed your eyes and held your nose you could mistake an onion for an apple and it is just not true.

(It is true that if you bite into an apple while someone holds a freshly grated lemon near your nose, it tastes lemony. But it is still obviously an apple that has been hacked with a lemon and the onion is obviously an onion no matter what.)
wpadmirer: (Default)

[personal profile] wpadmirer 2022-06-17 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
I honestly can't remember, but I can certainly see how it would happen. Especially with these examples.
armiphlage: Ukraine (Default)

[personal profile] armiphlage 2022-06-17 01:46 am (UTC)(link)
That bit about onions just made several scenes make sense!
musesfool: Scorpia! (don't you wanna know me?)

[personal profile] musesfool 2022-06-17 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
I have had this experience more than once though nothing specific is coming to mind right now, but all this talk of onions as old-timey snacks is making me think of Grandpa Simpson: "So I tied an onion to my belt which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days nickels had pictures of bumble bees on them. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now was I... Oh yeah! The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones."
Edited 2022-06-17 02:39 (UTC)
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)

[personal profile] lilacsigil 2022-06-17 04:23 am (UTC)(link)
I always assumed pickled onions, because my Scottish dad and grandparents loved them. Obviously all British people eat pickled onions constantly!

Then there's (thankfully) former Prime Minister Tony Abbott famously chowing down on an onion and it is indeed a strong brown onion.
selenak: (Winn - nostalgia)

[personal profile] selenak 2022-06-17 06:40 am (UTC)(link)
The early DS9 episode which introduces then-Vedek Winn where she incites an uproar about Keiko referring to the Prophets as "Wormhole Aliens" in school. I mean, I knew back then that Darwin once upon a time had been controversial, but in my head I safely assigned said controversy to the 19th century. Back in the early 1990s, I had no idea religion-based arguments about what should or shouldn't be taught in school were still a thing in the US, let alone an idea of just how powerful Evangelists were. (And even less an idea of what was to come.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 01:13 am (UTC)(link)
Not a book or show, but it was only as an adult that I understood why my seventh-grade biology teacher started the evolution module defensively, as though he were in the middle of an argument with the class, when I had only ever heard of evolution in passing. I remember being very confused by this in medias res approach, because I was getting a vibe from his lecture that we, and by implication I, had done something wrong, but I had no idea what!
qian: Tiny pink head of a Katamari character (Default)

[personal profile] qian 2022-06-17 11:12 am (UTC)(link)
I had a lot of these as a kid because of reading books whose cultural context were quite far from mine. Eg for years I had the vague belief that Enid Blyton's Five Find-outers, who are always eating macarons, were eating uncooked macaroni. Just going crunch crunch crunch!

I found it interesting how you read the Watership Down poem. If I understand you correctly, your original reading was that becoming rabbit-of-the-wind is obviously a metaphor for death, but not becoming rabbit-of-the-earth or rabbit-of-the-water?

Also I know several people who love eating raw onion -- in Malaysia satay is served with raw onion on the side and my mom will eat the whole bowl, and they're not particularly sweet onions. So that epiphany re sweet onions would never have struck me if not for this post!
qian: Tiny pink head of a Katamari character (Default)

[personal profile] qian 2022-06-19 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, got it re Frith! I should have reread the poem before commenting.

I actually can't remember now if the Five Find-outers ate macarons or macaroons. French macarons seem kinda fancy for that period of time in England, so maybe they were macaroons??
puddleshark: (Default)

[personal profile] puddleshark 2022-06-17 02:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sure this happens to me a lot, but the only example I can think of is botanical.

In CJ Cherryh's Rider at the Gate, there's a scene where the riders are sheltering in the snow under hemlocks... which are a sort of umbellifer in this country (like Queen Anne's Lace, only poisonous).

It was only years later that I came across Western Hemlock in an arboretum, and realised that no, the riders were not sheltering under some sort of giant umbellifer.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-17 04:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Tolkien is genuinely a different experience after having done early mediaeval history with heavy use of primary sources you have to translate yourself.

Shakespeare’s also very different when one has a really SOLID sense of his era’s social history - not the disconnected soundbites they occasionally give but SOLID, like knowing eg what the social perceptions around “what age should people get married/have even a political marriage consummated” actually were (spoilers: much older than most people think).
recessional: gandalf stands before a green field (book; i also am a steward)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
I mean I could basically do a significant multi-part series and am probably going to on the podcast in time to come but off the top of my head:

Among the most clear/simple ones is that in particular the texts that would become The Silmarillion are not a novel, they are a (fictional) history chronicle. They're not supposed to be a novel; they don't work as a novel; they're not trying to be a novel. They're a mediaeval-style chronicle of (supposed) history, which follows an entirely different set of conventions, understandings, assumptions and . . .short-hands, for lack of a better word. There's an entire structure of understanding in terms of how stories are relayed that's quite different.

But even Lord of the Rings, for example, contains in the prologue - in the section entitled "Note On The Shire Records" - a detailed recension history of the supposed text (the Red Book) that the story comes from: how it came to exist, and how it was transmitted down to the translator (supposedly Tolkien).

Recension histories are really important in work with mediaeval texts, because you can have two physical texts that CLAIM to be the same thing (eg: the texts we call the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle) even from the same time, but contain literally different words on the pages either great or small because they come from different recension histories.

Which is to say: once upon a time at least two copies were made and ended up in different places and were copied and annotated and added to (or subtracted from) or rewritten or miscopied or otherwise reproduced in different ways by different scribes at varying levels of fidelity depending on circumstance until you have multiple copies of the same text that look like this (to borrow from Wikipedia):

Occasionally the scribes' biases can be seen by comparing different versions of the manuscript they created. For example, Ælfgar, earl of East Anglia, and son of Leofric, the earl of Mercia, was exiled briefly in 1055. The [C], [D] and [E] manuscripts say the following:

[C]: "Earl Ælfgar, son of Earl Leofric, was outlawed without any fault ..."
[D]: "Earl Ælfgar, son of Earl Leofric, was outlawed well-nigh without fault ..."
[E]: "Earl Ælfgar was outlawed because it was thrown at him that he was traitor to the king and all the people of the land. And he admitted this before all the men who were gathered there, although the words shot out against his will."


So before you can talk about any text you have to talk about which version of the text it is, tracing it back and explaining how you know it's this version and how it came through its entire recension history to be physically in front of you.

Because some scribe with an Opinion might once upon a time have shifted a line that once said that Earl Aelfgar was exiled for no reason to say that Earl Aelfgar admitted in public to being a dirty traitor. And it's rather important to know where that change came from if it did; it's important to know whose hands were on the document because in a hand-copied world any one of those hands could have made big changes; and whether or not they likely DID is going to be a question of culture, oversight, influence, baseline assumptions and other contexts, and to assess the text you have to know what THOSE are, too.

The thing is that these were the texts and the stories and the context that JRRT spent his entire actual working life deeply immersed in; this was his actual career and he cared deeply enough for it to be fluent in multiple dead languages in order to do it properly. (Those times he really wanted DWJ to stfu and get out of the classroom like all the other students were as likely to be because he wanted to get back to editing Beowulf or reading fourth-century Gothic records as it was to have been about working on the fiction). The fictional material history of the Red Book is - by the time he's finishing LotR - a context and part of the story he's telling. So that's another huge thing.


A third is that he really, truly knows what he's talking about when it comes to how a mediaeval-tech-level world works. There's a reasonably well known GRRM snark that we don't know anything about Aragorn's tax policies, but actually you can accurately assess Denethor's from the information in the book, including the fact that the Pelennor is not just A Big Field Around The Fortress To Have A Battle In - it's the agricultural base that is Minas Tirith's primary immediate day-to-day food support, and if you know what you're looking at, that's right there in the text. Denethor initially resists abandoning it because that's a good way to starve; this is something that consistently was an issue in all the endless (and oh god were they endless, way, way more common and frequent than most people who haven't focused heavily on the era realize) wars and sieges that occupied most of the pre-modern world.

(Denethor, by the by, is sitting as the functional head of what to our understanding is a lot like a federation of semi-independent political entities - municipalities, or states in the sense of how the US has states - which answer to him but aren't intensively controlled by him, which would put significant limits on his powers of taxation and requisition . . . and does, which is actually indicated by a number of factors in Pippin's time in Minas Tirith. This probably wasn't the de jure setup since everyone continually refers to "the realm of Gondor" but DE FACTO it's very clear that there are various areas under the control of some local important person, lord, or even strong-man, who is actually keeping that area running, and has a LOT of independence from whatever Denethor wants).

But one of the striking things is that Tolkien does not, at any point, stop to explain this to the audience; he's just writing in a world with a lot of shit he takes for granted and he's also deeply embedded in his pov characters (because this is supposedly their record) and they are, bluntly, ignorant.

So the logistics of the defense of Minas Tirith - which are actually REALLY solid - pass by in front of the eyes of an extremely oblivious Pippin who is EXPLICITLY not paying attention because he's overtired, overwhelmed and so far out of his depths the fish have lights on their heads. There's no scaffolding to go, "ah yes, hello, modern day reader, here is a bit about How Fortresses Work that I'm telling you" the way that bluntly MOST fantasy writers (myself included) sprinkle these things through, especially if we're coming up on some element that we know is going to be counterintuitive to most of our readership - there's just Pippin being carried along over the agricultural fields and being half-awake as Gandalf stops to talk to people who are doing the things that you'd do.

(His battle tactics are also accurate for the kinds of warfare he describes, including eg the amount of time, in the book, everyone sits around doing nothing very exciting during the siege of Helm's Deep, and likewise later in the Siege of Minas Tirith, because Sieges are . . . a lot of sitting around doing nothing, punctuated by moments of intense terror.)

That's just a start of it, but. Coming back to it after my degree was just . . . an experience of things that had previously been invisible, or that I hadn't understood the meaning of, snapping into focus in a way that really did make the entire thing very different. And it was specifically the social history side of my degree, rather than either the middle English lit or the "kings and dates" type history - it was the time spent in the seminars actually doing my own edition of a 11th century English will from the Chancery court rolls.


(Relatedly among the notes was discovered Tolkien's sketch of Bilbo's will, which is as follows:

Bilbo (son of Bungo son of Mungo son of Inigo) Baggins hereinafter called the testator, now departing being the rightful owner of all properties and goods hereinafter named hereby devises, makes over, and bequeathes the property and messuage or dwelling-hole know as Bag-End [[Underhill (village)|]] near Hobbiton with all lands thereto belonging and annexed to his cousin and adopted heir Bingo (son of Drogo son of Togo son of Inigo) Baggins hereinafter called the heir, for him to have hold possess occupy let on lease sell or otherwise dispose of at his pleasure as from midnight of the twenty-second day of September in the one hundred and eleventh or eleventy-first year of the aforesaid Bilbo Baggins. Moreover the aforesaid testator devises and bequeathes to the aforesaid heir all monies in gold silver copper brass or tin and all trinkets, armours, weapons, uncoined metals, gems, jewels, or precious stones and all furniture appurtenances goods perishable or imperishable and chattels movable and immovable belonging to the testator and after his departure found housed kept stored or secreted in any part of said hole and residence of Bag-end or of the lands thereto annexed, save only such goods or movable chattels as are contained in the subjoined schedule which are selected and directed as parting gifts to the friends of the testator and which the heir shall dispatch deliver or hand over according to his convenience. The testator hereby relinquishes all rights or claims to all these properties lands monies goods or chattels and wishes all his friends farewell. Signed Bilbo Baggins.


This was clearly written before he'd settled on Frodo's final name form, but. Like. That there is a mediaeval will that is, right down to things that are quite close to the Standard Phrasings I was taught to look for when attempting to transcribe and read this kind of nonsense - I burst out giggling when I read "and all furniture appurtenances goods perishable or imperishable and chattels movable and immovable" because that's ONE OF THEM and in our seminar's group efforts around the [expletive] blurry photocopy of a facsimile of the wills we were transcribing we were in fact always on the look out for the pattern "mevvables and immevvables" (as they would often be written in Middle English) in order to start figuring out how THIS scribe might have varied his godsdamn letter-forms in order to READ the rest of it.

Obviously this will was never in the printed books but just . . . that kind of thing. The lens becomes so different, and so much wider.
swan_tower: The Long Room library at Trinity College, Dublin (Long Room)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-06-18 05:43 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, the Ælfgar example is hilarious. :-D

(And GRRM can suck a Domesday Book. He likes to pretend he's all Historical Realism, then sneers at research, acts like basically nobody believes in their religion except a few fanatics, and writes his Dothraki on a solid foundation of racist stereotypes.)
(deleted comment)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
It isn't, sorry - I was literally just about to edit it but can't now. XD Do you want me to delete and repost?
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Done!
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
This shit is all through the Chronicle variants. Working with it is literally its own specialized field that we're constantly unpacking to figure out What Actually Fuckin' Happened Back Then and it's a lot of fun, if you find "close line-reading hand-written Old English in antique scripts and micro-comparing them to other ones to track tiny variables and attempt to reconstruct multiple missing texts as a result and discover that Edward the Elder was a ratfink who probably murdered his sister in order to control Mercia and hid all of their conflicts and half her achievements in the version of the Chronicle he controlled via making it seem like he was just randomly out there building/repairing fortresses and she likewise for no reason" to be something that's "fun."

But the crucial thing is that this was the context that Tolkien was so steeped in that it was second nature to him and translates directly into how he wrote Arda once he started taking it seriously (ie as of Lord of the Rings getting heavy on him) and in a lot of ways I don't even think it was Conscious - he was not thinking "Ah, yes, I will Make This Story An Accurate Mediaeval Representation" as such - it was just this was where he lived, what he actually lived and breathed in most of his life and what he actually did care deeply about.

There's this tendency to simplify things with "he made up the stories to explain the languages" which is . . . well I mean it's incorrect flat out (he himself firmly sites the inspiration for Eä and Arda in his and his lost friends' drives to develop a non-Normanized shared mythology and there is so much historical complexity in that ALREADY that people are often very dismissive of but like . . . the Norman invasion, long ago as it was, was also a massive colonial-imperial and culture-destroying even on the island so like . . . . but that's another tangent), but also frames "language" and "history" as being separate and that really, really wasn't how he would have experienced it, given the areas of history he was deeply involved in?

Language and language spread and language change and language history in early-Mediaeval (and late Antiquity) Europe and especially on the Isles . . . is social history. It's not SIMPLISTIC social history (the Mercians were Old English speaking from the first point that we know about them, for example, but it's genuinely arguable how Germanic their overall culture was before . . . honestly tenth century or so, especially OUTSIDE of the royal dynasties . . . ) but it's social history and it's all interconnected.

I don't think it's useful to (even given the localization of using Old English as a shorthand to represent Rohirric for example) say like, "the Rohirrim ARE the Old English", but I think it is super relevant to be like: he was actually extremely aware of how population movements and migrations of culture and so on happened across western Eurasia; how cultures defined by one thing (ie a maritime culture) would migrate to a new area and shift that alignment (into an inland/infantry based culture).

AND STUFF.


Which is related to GRRM's misunderstanding because, well. HE'S ACTUALLY SO IGNORANT he . . . doesn't entirely realize all of what he doesn't know, and so says stupidass things in public. It just cracked me up on one of my post-degree rereads that of course we don't know ARAGORN'S tax policies because we don't see any of his reign on the ground . . . but actually I can tell you some really solid things about what the sociopolitical situation Denethor had to deal with was, because of how well things like "the description of Pippin watching the military forces coming in from the various territories" actually align and make sense . . . . if you know about how societies functioning at this tech and combat level work, and so on.

The portrait of a previously very strong and well-ordered federation* that is seriously on the ropes with regions that are definitely hemming and hawing over how much they're willing to support the centralized government vs retaining enough resources to maybe go it alone, is actually really clear and really consistent! The presence of a money economy that is nonetheless clearly also on the ropes given the givens is ALSO really clear and consistent, and from that I can actually make a lot of really grounded assumptions about how Denethor is running this ship. AND STUFF.

But it's all background; it's all based in assumptions he makes in the background and assumes you're making too (or doesn't even bother to think about); assumptions about how fast people can travel, what they need to travel, what risks there are, how armies WORK, all of these things, but he's not then filling anyone in on it. These are just . . . assumptions. Which makes it a very different thing to read AFTER one picks up enough of the background knowledge that he has to actually catch all the times that he's not ACTUALLY handwaving, or ignoring, a factor: he's just assuming you understand how what he's showing you takes that into account.

*how much it counted as a voluntary federation vs an empire is gonna come down to brass tacks we don't quite have and is a long and complex discussion that, hilariously, based on details in the appendices and the Silm I can have! but would make me run out of space in this comment and probably bore everyone, but tl;dr I would argue by DENETHOR's time it's been a pretty voluntary federation for a while just because Minas Tirith/Anórien as a region really can't . . . enforce shit on anyone, they're under way too much pressure from their actual enemy.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 10:29 pm (UTC)(link)
but would make me run out of space in this comment and probably bore everyone

No, please do! (I mean, if Rachel doesn't mind.) Because I have no strong opinion on the matter and am willing to be convinced, especially as I've never read the entirety of the evidence base with this question in mind. So all I've got is what I remember from the last time I did serious Tolkien scholarship on other topics, and that was almost 10 years ago now.

One thing I remember is this passage from the letters:

Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost – and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting, and in the earlier years of A.’s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King’s absence. A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor.

The things that strike me as interesting here are "even Denethor," which makes it sound like Denethor was ruling in a *more* centralized fashion than a Numenorean monarch, and "at least listened to what they had to say." In my experience of European polities, a monarch (even what we would call an "absolute" monarch--another one of those fraught terms that historians would like you to know does not mean what you* think it means) has a council and has to listen to what they say, and is the interpreter and administrator of laws but not the maker. A head of a federation (like, say, the Holy Roman Empire), has to do a lot more than listen to what the council says!

Philosophically speaking, Tolkien was a big fan of a hands-off monarchy, and he represents Aragorn as that type, the good kind of monarch, and Denethor (and Boromir) as way too hands-on controlly for his tastes. Denethor is in some ways at the end of a decline, and Aragorn a restoration of The Way It Should Be Done.

Which makes me wonder if that's what Tolkien was getting at with Aragorn re-establishing the Great Council. This kind of thing is done by monarchs ceding power, sometimes to devastating effect (see also the French Revolution). Denethor may be delegating less than a Numenorean monarch, not more.

but tl;dr I would argue by DENETHOR's time it's been a pretty voluntary federation for a while just because Minas Tirith/Anórien as a region really can't . . . enforce shit on anyone, they're under way too much pressure from their actual enemy.

This happens, but it can also go the other way! My period is the period of monarchs using the pressure of external wars precisely to turn loose federations of nobles and strongmen into absolutism and centralization. Making the monarchy stronger was a not infrequent excuse for starting or getting into a war, and if the war was already there, a common way of harnessing it.

And personality-wise, Denethor strikes me as someone who would very much like to turn a federation, if that was what he inherited, into a centralized government, as well as someone who was intelligent and subtle enough to harness a war or the threat of war into getting the control he wanted.

He's also less peripatetic than I would expect of someone of his personality trying to hold an inherited (this part is key) voluntary federation together.

On the other hand, I don't see (or remember seeing, at least) the bureaucracy I would expect of someone with a centralized state or trying to centralize his state. And that's not just my period speaking--Diocletian, for example, tried to pull a crumbling Roman Empire together precisely by instituting/ramping up the bureaucracy.

(Speaking of Roman emperors, Denethor's "Unlike my son, I don't mind being called Steward instead of King, I just want the power" attitude reminds me of Augustus's primus inter pares.)

Granted, the palantir would compensate for some of the bureaucracy as well as some of the need for a peripatetic court, but not all of it in either case.

I would be interested in your counterevidence, since you've obviously read with this question in mind! I'm just pulling things out of my hat at random.

* You the average person, not you, the well-informed [personal profile] recessional.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
SO first off I admittedly was rambling fast so I collapsed an issue of de jure vs de facto in framing the matter; we're also deep in the weeds of the Appendices and details Pippin witnesses but utterly fails to understand.

I have very little doubt that Denethor rules Minas Tirith and Anórien (the region/province that is to Minas Anor [aka Minas Tirith] as Ithilien was to Minas Ithil) extremely autocratically; he may even be making overall decisions that way, and Dol Amroth in particular given Imrahil's specific choices and loyalties (Denethor was his brother-in-law) may hew extremely close to that.

But bluntly by the list of the arriving reinforcements, plus the sheer number of people (and supplies) Aragorn is able to gather up from various places after dealing with the Corsairs/the threat of the Corsairs, outside of Anórien and Dol Amroth, lotta people who are technically enfeoffed to Minas Tirith ain't showing up.

The Lord of Lossarnach brings about two hundred fighters, rather than two thousand, because while he's willing to show up he's Noped out of taking more than two hundred fighters away from the defense of, well, Lossarnach, his actual province. The Lord of Ringló Vale sends three hundred under one of his sons; Morthond at least shows up in person with both his sons, but he's only got a few hundred people; ditto Pennith Galen. The coastal province of Ethir sends "some hundred or more [men], spared from the ships"; Lamedon sends "a few grim hillmen without a captain". Anfalas has a couple hundred, almost none of them with any equipment except "the household" of the lord.

Conversely, after scouring the Pelargirs, Aragorn is able to bring up over four thousand from the provinces he passed through, and that's only a couple of them.

The state of the stores in Minas Tirith pretty solidly indicate that the various provinces have been equally conservative in what supplies they've been sending, at least for the last while.

The fact that they're ABLE to do so indicates at least a generation where Minas Tirith is not commanding a centralized, professional army of any capacity - even by the collapse of the Empire, Roman emperors and pretenders and generals WERE able to command the vast majority of legions to pick up and abandon their long-term stations, because of the systemic and continued centralized discipline. Denethor is not running that kind of political enterprise.

You're totally right: monarchs (and Denethor is absolutely acting as one, regardless of his specific title) throughout history have used The Threat of War to increase their power. And six hundred years ago his great-great grandfather might've done the same. Denethor can't: he's logistically fucked.

The monarchs of your period were able to do that because of the way that warfare worked, and also because of the politics of the era, which were very much those of each state against ALL the other states, and was a warfare of - increasingly - either professional national standing armies, or (at the beginning of it) extremely professional mercenaries.

That meant if Count Such and Such said "actually, your majesty, go fuck yourself", King So and So could (and usually would) be able to take direct military action against them - and indeed had frequently spent the early 16th and late 15th centuries doing exactly that, and teaching the nobility to Not.

That is in no way shape or form the situation that Denethor is in. Denethor is in a flat zero sum conflict against an enemy who wants to (and will) absolutely obliterate him and his entire realm off the face of the planet and who has very explicitly been fighting a war of attrition with Gondor on exactly those terms since before the death of the last king of Anárion's line - and is winning that war at this point.

If Angbor of Lamedon decides - as he did, in fact - to go "fuck it, me and my army are staying here because bluntly I care way less if Denethor and Minas Tirith fall and die than about the threat to my actual province" and as a result only a handful of presumably the most overall-patriotic-yay-Gondor bother going north to the muster, Denethor can . . . do exactly bupkiss. If Angbor is sending less grain because he's making sure the stockpiles for Lamedon come first, Denethor can also do exactly bupkiss.

Because Denethor has no military capacity to enforce anything and hasn't for at least as long as Boromir's been an adult and probably longer ("those who shelter behind give much praise, but little help"); even Ecthelion, his father, is desperate enough that "Thorongil" can wander into the city without family or history and out of pure personal capacity become a major military commander who can go "I'm taking a fleet to go smash Umbar" and . . . do that.

No, the councils involved did not have de jure power, and theoretically Denethor controls the whole realm, by law and by structure; de facto, the reason Denethor listens to what the Lords of the Fiefs have to say is because if they start flipping him off he can't do shit, because he has no way to make them do fuck all: he cannot divert military forces from dealing with Sauron and trying will just mean Gondor is Over. He has no legal requirement to allow them a vote or anything, but he has a pragmatic and logistical absolute need to keep them on-side; if they aren't on-side, Gondor is Over, and relying on the cultural investment in the Idea of Gondor without any military backup to deal with breakaway regions means that you really can't put too much pressure on it without it shattering.

Similarly Denethor does not have the logistical ability to have a heavily centralized administration: the roads aren't good enough, there aren't enough people to man road-guard stations, or to be part of a centralized administrative network. We see that as we follow Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith from Rohan. The provincial fiefdoms HAVE to be doing most of that; and as a result, again, all that Denethor has to rely on to make sure they're playing ball at ALL is going to be this idea of Gondor as a united Realm.

As it happens, the Númenórean-accultured-Idea of Gondor was really strong, and really powerful, and was actually enough to keep eg Lamedon and Lossarnach and the other provinces and crucially Dol Amroth at least willing to still participate, so that it seemed more valuable to them at all times to remain "Lord of Lossarnach, Province of Gondor" than it would to just say fuckit and become King of Lossarnach; and culture can in fact have that kind of power, and the IDEA of a Great Realm can have it as well.

But whether Denethor likes it or not (and I'd be willing to bet hard cash he doesn't), de facto, he has to work within a framework where whether or not the Lords of the Fiefs WANT to be part of Gondor is in fact the most important thing because he can't do shit if they decide they don't.

QED Angbor of Lamedon keeping four thousand armed men back because making sure Lamedon wasn't fucked up by the Corsairs was more important to him than making sure Minas Tirith (and thus, you know . . . Gondor . . . ) didn't fall.

And crucially: what's relayed to us by Pippin's POV summary of what he hears in the crowds watching? That was expected. "Ah. Nobody's sending even half their forces, because of the news of that fleet." They take that for granted.

Now to be clear: at multiple points in European history, monarchs with a much more hardcore centralized control over their nobility absolutely did strip areas of their military forces in order to win in the "core" of the kingdom, allowing outer regions to be BADLY raided and destroyed, dealing with the rebuilding and/or running the other raiding forces out AFTER they'd maintained their central hold and control. That absolutely happened.

When they couldn't do that, it was usually a sign that dynasty was on the way out; the ones that had that point of weakness and DIDN'T end up getting punted were usually smart enough not to ASK their vassals to be cool with their own lands being burned while Paris or Rome was saved, but solved the problem some other way, and then . . . worked on increasing their centralized control later.

So when I say I'm pretty sure that's what he's working with by the War of the Ring, what Gondor is dealing with by his era in general, I mean in the de facto world of logistics as evidenced by his actual ability to command forces and supplies - not the de jure world of "they have formal voting rights within a delineated official structure"; I'm looking at things with an interest of "how is the power on the ground actually shaking out", not "what does the cultural rule-book say".


Now on the upside the fact that it DIDN'T occur to anyone to radically change the cultural rulebook means that it's gonna be WAY easier for Aragorn to return a truly centralized function to the area! But.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-19 04:47 pm (UTC)(link)
This was informative, thank you! I agree the named lords of named geographical regions getting to decide how many troops to send vs. hold back definitely smacks of a federation. Many of the other things I've seen in my period, but that's a big litmus test there.

de facto, the reason Denethor listens to what the Lords of the Fiefs have to say is because if they start flipping him off he can't do shit, because he has no way to make them do fuck all:

But as I mentioned, absolute monarchs in my period also have to listen to their lords. I think I would summarize the difference like so:

- Can you make any given noble do what you want, but if you piss off too many of them you're looking at a coup, so you have to listen to them as a group? You might be an absolute monarch.

- Can you not make any given noble do shit, and you have to beg and/or bargain with each one for anything they give you? You might be the head of a federation.

was a warfare of - increasingly - either professional national standing armies, or (at the beginning of it) extremely professional mercenaries.

But sometimes this is how you got the standing army: by convincing your powerful subjects that the national emergency demanded troops, and then hanging onto them tooth and nail once you had them, and using them to your own advantage.

Your description of Gondor's internal situation actually reminds me a fair bit of Savoy when Victor Amadeus II came to power (1684): several distinct adjacent provinces that I think were possibly even more linguistically and ethnically different than Gondor's, powerful enfeoffed nobles running the show, poor communications even by the standards of the time in much of the area in question (we're talking about the Alps here), a fortified capital city (Turin) in a strategic location, powerful neighbors (esp. France) who want to conquer your state, nobles (like the Governor of Milan) who don't send the amount of requested troops to the head of state's aid during wartime, causing the head of state to complain, famine and general logistical difficulties.

And Victor Amadeus, who of all the rulers I've studied during my period has the personality most like Denethor, used this situation to turn his collection of provinces into an early modern centralized absolutist state*. When Louis XIV's France was threatening to invade and/or invading almost as soon as VA came to power (which I think was a much more immediate threat than Denethor faced--I seem to recall he had more lead time before the occupation of his capital), he used that situation to dramatically increase the size of the army, impose centralized taxation on rebellious subjects, build up a modern bureaucracy, etc.

You've made a convincing case that by the time Pippin shows up, Denethor hasn't managed to do this, but if he had, it wouldn't have been without precedent.

VA had one big advantage that Denethor didn't, which you alluded to: the foreign policy scene. Tolkien's wars are fought for principle. VA's wars were fought for land and wealth. Denethor didn't have the option of switching sides every few years to try to play Mordor and, say, the Corsairs of Umbar off against each other while he bought himself time to build up his army and consolidate his state. Saruman tried that, and we know how that ended.

But Denethor had the advantage of this "Númenórean-accultured-Idea of Gondor" that VA did not. His state was cobbled together over the centuries via inheritance and conquest, and his family didn't even have strong ties in some of the provinces, who were like "Who the fuck do you think you are?" He was actually trying to trade off some of his existing, more remote and less culturally bound, provinces for territory that would be easier to administer.

This has been an awesomely fun discussion, thank you!

* It's a continuum; "centralized" and "absolutist" usually mean "making sure the nobles retain enough power to want to go along with this program," "being smart enough not to ask your nobles to do anything they're not going to do," etc., not "one person has all the power."
Edited 2022-06-19 16:59 (UTC)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-19 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)

“who want to occupy your state”

I think there’s some crucial difference in stakes here that to my mind is a central factor: Sauron does not want to “occupy” Gondor in the way that rival states in the 18th century occupied or conquered one another, which was usually a matter of back and forth territorial control that often left huge parts of the local power structure intact, and were operating from very similar structures and understanding of power and how society was structured.

When the most likely result of a conquest is your exile or your own enfeoffment to a new overlord that just isn’t that much different than operating as you were now - when even where divided by language your neighbours shared a very similar basic structure of life, society and expectations - the stakes are seriously reduced both for you AND for your vassals as they weigh what course of action is most beneficial. Ironically this makes the increase in centralized power much more feasible if you’re ballsy enough to try it.

Sauron is not doing that. The threat here both for Denethor and for his vassals is existential: it is mass murder and enslavenent to the point of genocide, and the obliteration of realm, culture, way of life, all of it.

This results in very different calculus and available power pressures. (If you want to see equivalent you don’t want to look at Europe in your era; you want to look at people facing down the height of Roman, Persian, Mongol, Arabic, or Turkish juggernaut expansion at the strong point of their empires.)

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-19 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Exactly, which is why I talked about how VA has options in his foreign policy scene that Denethor doesn't.

That said...not having an existential threat in my period can make local provinces *more* willing to deny their supposedly centralized head of state aid in favor of negotiating better terms with the invading enemy and sometimes just outright surrendering to them.
telophase: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] telophase 2022-06-21 04:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Could you suggest some sources to learn more about what was going on with Victor Amadeus II's centralization? (I've got a fantasy work in progress and I think that would help me make sense out of what a background character is scheming about!)

I'm a systems librarian at a university so I can ILL just about anything.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-21 05:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, someone actually caring about Victor Amadeus!

So Christopher Storrs, War, Diplomacy and the Rise of Savoy, 1690–1720, talks the most about the centralization. (You will see that the actual picture is necessarily more complicated and also more debated by scholars than my superficial summary above.) Also Geoffrey Symcox's Victor Amadeus II: Absolutism in the Savoyard State, which is a biography that contained more material of interest to me and was a better starting point.

Warning: both works are quite dry, and I don't know how readable they are without background knowledge of the period. But if you're more interested in the internal affairs (of less interest to me) than the foreign policy (my main interest), the material in the book may be more self-contained.

There are colored maps in my foreign-policy-focused summary here that may be of assistance (the summary itself I'm not sure how helpful it will be; it assumes you've been in my friends' and my Frederick the Great salon for two years, and doesn't talk much about centralization).

I'm definitely happy to chat more on the subject if you end up wanting to!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-21 06:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Also. It occurs to me I picked Savoy because, of the options available in the 17th-18th centuries, its starting conditions were most similar to Gondor's. (As recessional notes, there are still significant differences). If your fantasy country has different starting conditions, feel free to describe them to me and I will see if I can find a country that's a closer match and rec sources on centralization in that country. Options include: Prussia, France, Spain, Austria, Russia, Sweden that I can talk about off the top of my head and rec sources on.
telophase: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] telophase 2022-06-22 08:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you! Shall we take this to DMs or email so I don't blather on AT LENGTH in [personal profile] rachelmanija's comments? :D
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-22 09:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I have just the place for you! Several of us have been blathering on AT LENGTH about history in [personal profile] cahn's comments for the last 3 years, mostly about the 18th century but also about whatever period strikes our interest. We call it salon.

Visiting our salon will be even better than DMing me or emailing me, because [personal profile] selenak knows a lot about history that I don't, and then you can have both of us helping you, and maybe other people too.

I think Selena's traveling internationally right now, so she may not be immediately available, but we definitely plot fiction in salon, so I know she'll pitch in when she's free again.

The currently active salon post is here (the old posts are in the tag). Feel free to pop right in and reply with a description of your fantasy situation and what you're looking for.

Welcome!
Edited 2022-06-23 01:56 (UTC)
telophase: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] telophase 2022-06-23 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks! I'll drop by as soon as I get a chance. :)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-23 03:57 am (UTC)(link)
Oh! And if you prefer to keep the details of your work in progress private, just drop a line to that effect and ask Cahn to create a tagged post locked to just the four of us: you, me, her, and Selena. We've done that before when one of us was plotting fiction that needed to not be publicly searchable (say, findable by the recipient).
cahn: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] cahn 2022-06-23 06:04 am (UTC)(link)
Come over and hang out with us! :D (The posts are tagged "Frederick the Great" because that's where we started, and still keep coming back to him, but range all over the place.) No pressure, but if you would like to come, welcome! Talking AT LENGTH is encouraged!

Also, just so you know, salon came about in large part because I know basically ZERO history, and [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard and [personal profile] selenak have, for almost three (!) years now, not stopped having a good time telling me about history and answering all my many extremely-amateur questions -- they are super <3 :D
telophase: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] telophase 2022-06-23 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you! I'll drop by as soon as I get a chance!
cahn: (Default)

Re: reposting to avoid Rogue Strikeout!

[personal profile] cahn 2022-06-23 05:52 am (UTC)(link)
This entire discussion fills me with great happiness and glee, thank you!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
My own specialty in Tolkien scholarship was not history* but mythology, philosophy, and literary criticism, but, wow, yeah, it's a different experience when you come to him with any kind of relevant academic background.**

Even just having read his own other works, his essays and letters and such, you realize he's encoding arguments (and sometimes agreements) with other scholars into the Hobbit and LOTR! You think that's just a casual remark by Gimli about caves, but actually, Tolkien wrote the same opinion in an essay about how Beowulf scholars were Doing It Wrong.

I burst out giggling when I read "and all furniture appurtenances goods perishable or imperishable and chattels movable and immovable" because that's ONE OF THEM

I had the same experience reading a one-paragraph scrap of paper from his unpublished notes in the HoME: it's line-by-line from Dionysius of Halicarnassus! He just changed the names of the characters and "Rome" to "Rivendell"! I was all, "Omg, I recognize his passage!" He must have had the book open in front of him; either that or he'd made a point of memorizing that passage before. It's one of those things where if the source material weren't in the public domain, it would be plagiarism. (This not a dig at Tolkien, just saying you can see him showing his work.)

This is what I love about Tolkien: you can read his stuff at the surface level, and have "Dragons and heroes and adventures, cool!" experience, and you can spend a lifetime digging beneath the surface to figure out what he was thinking when he wrote something, and it will be incredibly rewarding.

* Probably because the Middle Ages were only a casual interest of mine, and Tolkien wasn't that into the diplomatic schemes of the 1720s-1740s. :P

** Even having my main training in linguistics meant that I could suddenly understand what he was doing with his languages, even without making a special study of it, because conlangs are for some reason boring to me.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)

“ because conlangs are for some reason boring to me.”

I mean most conlangs ARE totally divorced from any kind of social history ime: they might be theory of linguistics accurate but they’re generally totally disconnected from “this happened because a mass migration and culture change was driven by-“ etc, let ALONE anything more involved. So I could see that being boring in general.

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I think in my case it's more that conlangs aren't evidence for how language actually works. They don't have explanatory power for anything other than this one author's work. Even if this one author was a professional philologist and actually knew his stuff, it's not adding to my knowledge of LanguageTM.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 08:57 pm (UTC)(link)

Makes sense to me. And for my money they’re usually not even showing inventive imagination or speculation about it because they’re not involved in “so how does this relate to the actual society” etc.

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, your relevant specialty was history (I never even took a formal history class after high school! And stopped even reading history seriously for 10 years) and mine was linguistics, so our different priorities here make sense. :) I am here for the cog sci aspects of linguistics! And the huge explanatory power of many words in many languages philology aspects! Conlangs: not that.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)
“what age should people get married/have even a political marriage consummated” actually were (spoilers: much older than most people think).

My perception from my period (late 17th-18th centuries) is that 12-14 was the minimum for consummating a political marriage, with most being consummated later (but many still shocking by our standards), but I'd be interested to know 1) more details, 2) if it was different in Shakespeare's slightly earlier period.

I've definitely seen fantasy commenters go in the other direction and be shocked and horrified that a 14-yo princess is being shipped off to a political marriage, and making bogus arguments about how UNHISTORICAL this is for the European Middle Ages, and I'm like, oh, you sweet summer child. They were still doing it in my period, and with the caveat that when you go back into the Middle Ages, we're less likely to know anyone's exact birth year, you can see 14-yos getting married and having kids in the Middle Ages too.

Hell, my great-grandmother was married at 14 and producing kids at 15 in the early 20th century, and there was one of her near relatives who I forget the exact relationship of, but she was married off by her family at 13.

But if there's a common perception that single-digit age children were having their marriages consummated, then no--they were engaged and sometimes shipped off to their future husband's court as toddlers, but (again, at least in my period), it was considered detrimental to their health to have sex before about 12-14 (depending on gender, location, and time). And that long wait often gave sufficient time for the political winds to shift and the marriage never to go through, so their actual marriage wouldn't be consummated in practice until they were even older.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 06:41 pm (UTC)(link)
SO HERE'S WHERE IT GETS COMPLEX:

12-ish was indeed the LEGAL minimum. It was not the SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE minimum. It happened! But not often, and it was looked down on.

Super bluntly the younger the wife got pregnant, the more likely she was to DIE, and on top of that the baby will also die, and the mediaevals and early-moderns were VERY well aware of this, as they were also well aware that every single act of coitus is risking a pregnancy. You don't actually want to kill off your incredibly-valuable-political-alliance-token (ie: your wife, or your son's wife) via a pregnancy Too Young.

So in the upper ranks, while the wife might actually take off to live in the other dynasty's home at an earlier age, you can track both in writings and in dates of birth, and in social opprobrium for those who broke this norm, that you're still looking at ~18 or older.

Get lower in society and ahhahaha actually our average age of first marriage (ie: this has EXCLUDED the widows and widowers who are remarrying, so no they are NOT skewing the results) is mid-twenties. Sometimes, it's LATE twenties. Only in very specific boom times does it go down below that.

This is because the way that the culture worked, and the demands on a new household, you literally couldn't afford to do it before then. It would take you to that age to be ABLE to AFFORD to be married, because mediaeval and early-modern Western European and especially English society relied heavily on both genders as part of the economic unit that allowed a household to survive, and at that time actually really disapproved of wide age gaps in marriage.

This is a significant departure both from Antiquity (that tended to marry off much younger women to older men, because women really weren't part of the economic unit as much) and quite different from your period (where age gaps between husband and wife were increasing, probably in part because of the increasing industrialization of base-level production - that TENDS to be the thing that correlates, but obviously as you know bob correlation may not be causation**): in the mediaeval and early modern periods, marriages were usually between similar ages and that age was "in their twenties."

Again, the LEGALITIES were not that: it was LEGAL to marry (and consummate) as young as 12-ish (assuming she'd passed menarche) and there was nothing about age differences being a problem. But legality and social acceptability are two different things, and even social ACCEPTABILITY is very different from social NORM.

And socially we have a LOT of evidence that it was considered a really dick move (and one that implied you were a shitty husband and/or in-law) to have a teenage bride get pregnant; that age-gaps especially where the man was significantly older than the woman were Not Cool (and could end up with a rough music harassment - SIGNIFICANT and up to assault sometimes); and that you only BOTHERED with the marriage younger than the 20s if you had significant property you were trying to lock down, and even there sexual consummation was often delayed specifically because of the known risk.



Now note: this is very much Western-by-Northwestern Europe: Germania-Francia-Britannia (to name landmasses instead of countries because hahahaha), and Southern Europe was its own thing and had very different culture influences. This is part of why Shakespeare set Romeo and Juliet in Italy (Those Crazy Italians and their Crazy Thing With Marrying Off Babies), and you are still supposed to think that Paris and Capulet are being gross and creepy to marry off Juliet to an older man that young, it's just expected that Italians Are Weird And Creepy.

Speaking of which: Romeo and Juliet! Totally different play after deep-diving early-modern English culture, except then you come around and realize he literally told you in detail what the play was about in the prologue so it's weird that we miss it so much. (tl;dr: this play is about the Feud and the total failure of anyone to deal with the feud until it killed their babies, because they're Morons. The end.)


ETA: BUT ALSO - fwiw I have also seen the occasional fantasy commentator who has indeed probably been told some of this at some point and has interpreted this as "our age-of-consummation norms are accurate to the mediaevals" which is itself deeply stupid, in much the same way that the same kind of person often takes "actually mediaeval and early modern women were central to the economic unit and operated with a particular kind of significant influence/etc" as "mediaeval and early-modern culture weren't actually virulently misogynistic and anti-woman", which is ALSO not correct!

It's just more complicated and the simplistic formula of "well this was the norm in 1830 and The Past Was Worse so it must've been even worse in 1330" that gets applied is ALSO not going to steer you the right way; the society of 1330 might have hated women plenty, and it did, but it also needed a lot of them doing significant jobs in public to FUNCTION . . .and did, and humans being human most of these women turned around and took what power they could where they could, and so on.

Nobody was going to STOP eg the Duke of whatever from having sex with his twelve year old bride, but they were definitely going to JUDGE him for it, judge his father-in-law for allowing it, and consider it not something they were about to allow happen with their own daughter who definitely wasn't going off to the new ally's house until she was 16 and was going to go with her confessor and a retinue who were to Discourage Nuptial Visits until she'd been there a year or three.

The law wasn't going to STOP Old Man Miller from marrying 16 year old Elizabeth from the village but his house being surrounded by masked, torch-bearing locals chanting about his shame and not-so-subtly threatening to burn his house down might well make him think twice, or make her father think twice and keep her home until she was 20 and married one of the three 20yo men from the village instead.

And so on. And that did in fact change as we moved into the latter half of the 17th and into the early 18th century: women married younger and younger, and were also less and less part of the PUBLIC economic unit, all the more so the further up the ranks of society you went. It became different.


**(nb yes I know you said late 17th century ie 1670s-onward, not late 1700s, but even at that point COMPARED to eg 1450 production in food etc was moving towards a mass organized scale associated with what we call "industrial", which you probably know but I wanted to put here because I know some people might be like "1690 was way before the Industrial Revolution!" and like yes, but it was still increasingly industrialIZED compared to what came before)
Edited 2022-06-18 19:09 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
you literally couldn't afford to do it before then. It would take you to that age to be ABLE to AFFORD to be married, because mediaeval and early-modern Western European and especially English society relied heavily on both genders as part of the economic unit that allowed a household to survive

Yeah, that was definitely true of the lower classes in my period: they couldn't afford to get married, so the average age of first marriage for domestic servants was late twenties/early thirties. (As you note, the ages and types of marriages for servants did change significantly between 1670 and 1790, and also there was a gradient from north to south.)

For heads of state? War. War, impending war, avoiding war, recently ended war, dictated who married who when. You can see them holding on their daughters until their 20s in order to drag more concessions out of their neighbors during peacetime, and you can see them shipping off their daughter the moment the war is breaking out and they need an alliance too badly to quibble. [Impressionistic, but I read a lot of diplomatic history.]

You also see royal fathers of my period going "Why isn't my teenage daughter pregnant yet! What's wrong with my son-in-law?!" or "What do you mean, my son let a thirteen-year-old girl tell him she didn't want to have sex? Show her who's boss, son! You've got to get this marriage off on the right foot!"

Compleeetely different considerations from the class whose first question had to be "can I afford to have kids?"

Mind you, even among heads of state, there was also the consideration of "Will I be able to find a husband for all my daughters?" and "Will I have to support them forever?" and "If I support them forever, what happens when I die? Will they have an income of their own?" that led even heads of state with large treasuries to want to get their daughters married off asap.

For readers who might not know this--I'm sure you do!--there was even, at least in France, symbolic marriage consummation for children who were too young or if one party was unwilling and the other wasn't going to force it. They would lie side by side in bed, fully dressed, and the sharing of the bed would be witnessed by courtiers and make it more official than if they hadn't done this, but less official than if sex had taken place. (Sometimes the sex was actually witnessed! as with Henri II and Catherine de' Medici in 1533, both 14 years old.)

If the parties were really not on good terms, the bridegroom might just stand beside the bed and touch his leg to hers without fully getting in the bed. Those marriages were even easier to annull than your average marriage.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)

So hilariously through most of my period consummation was actually much less important for the "realness" of the marriage. That was something that became more important again after the Reformation, because the Protestants de-sacralized marriage and even though the Catholics didn't, there was a significant knock-on effect that got more intense as time went on, getting into the stuff you're familiar with.

The theological rule for marriage in my period was: you were married if you said you were married in "words of the present tense" (eg "I marry you" or "I do" in response to the "do you"), or if you said you'd GET married in words of the FUTURE tense and then had sex (so yes: boys who got girls to sleep with them on the basis of "I'll totally marry you later" were absolutely dragged in front of canon courts to discover hahaha ACTUALLY, bro, you ARE married now already).

This was a hard line; your only way out of it in terms of "annulled for non-consummation" was in fact if one party (usually the man) had DECEIVED the other party about whether he was CAPABLE of consummating. So eg if a woman found out that her husband was impotent and he'd KNOWN (or should have known) that he was impotent before they married, then the marriage could be annulled.

There were detailed examinations for this by "knowledgeable women of the village". (So a dude couldn't get OUT of a marriage free and clear by lying ABOUT this just because he didn't want to sleep with his wife.) Which yes does in fact mean that there are court cases where as far as we know two or three village matrons took a guy into another room to determine whether or not he could get it up via a handjob in order to determine whether a marriage could be annulled, because the mediaevals are WONDERFUL like that.

On the other hand if he became impotent after the marriage or didn't know or hadn't known, nope!

Otherwise, if you said "I do" and there was no destructive impediment (ie thing that made marriage theologically impossible regardless of anything else), you were married. End of story. The sacrament had been performed, the union was complete in God's eyes, that's it!

The Church had to work for a few centuries to ESTABLISH this, mind, and as I said it fell apart come the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and also obviously the powerful did their best to ignore it or get the Pope to magically annul things based on impediments they either made up, or which should have made the marriage impossible AND other FUTURE marriages impossible, but who cares I'm the King (looking at you Eleanor and Henry . . . )whenever they could! But the other flipside was the obsession with the Witnessed Consummation was a later thing that came back in AFTER the Reformation thanks to the effect that Protestant desacralization of marriage had on the entire affair, and attendant theological confusion, especially when countries were switching back and forth on what they were every ten years or so.

Shakespeare's era would have been at the wobbly point in time for this one, but still solidly erring on the side of, even the nobility were mostly reserving their daughters until at least late teenagerhood if not beyond, or if they surrendered them were doing so with retinues and support staff.

And again: outliers definitely happened! But there's a difference as we know bob between the outliers and the norms. (I have some speculation about the changing role of women OVERALL also having an effect on how willing the bride's family were to have younger women in the diplomatic role - there's also a strong indication a lot of the time in my period that they also tended not to be interested in sending the daughter out to the husband until she was old enough to be a USEFUL driver of their dynasty's interests, which a 14 year old is usually not - and vice versa - in a society where politics was less symbolic and much more rooted on individual personalities and talents than it was moving to be later on, but I don't have the transitional knowledge to back that up as my focus area obviously trickles off after the early-moderns pretty abruptly; I find the Wars of Religion a headache. XD)

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
This was a hard line; your only way out of it in terms of "annulled for non-consummation" was in fact if one party (usually the man) had DECEIVED the other party about whether he was CAPABLE of consummating.

This is ringing a bell from translating medieval canon law in Latin, thanks for the reminder!

also obviously the powerful did their best to ignore it or get the Pope to magically annul things based on impediments they either made up

"After umpteen years of marriage, we just discovered we're too closely related! I need an annulment so I can go marry someone equally closely related who might not be barren!" One historian I was reading recently got snarky about this. Most of them just report it. :P

One party saying they were forced into the marriage was also valid grounds for annulment, at least in the Renaissance and continuing into my period. Usually (impressionistically speaking, I have no stats) this is the woman speaking, but 15th-century Louis XII comes to mind: he wanted a divorce, so he argued that he was married against his will below the age of consent (they were both about 11-14, of course no one knew exactly), and also claimed he'd never consummated the marriage (something his wife contested).

Women obviously had a stronger case, overall, for being made to do things without their consent.

(Which reminds me, in my period, Protestant King Frederick William I asked his local pastors if filial piety meant he could marry his daughter off against her will. They all agreed marriage was a sacrament and required the consent of both parties. His response? "I don't like your answer, so I'm going to do it anyway.")

my focus area obviously trickles off after the early-moderns pretty abruptly; I find the Wars of Religion a headache. XD)

See, I agree with this, which is my focus starts when the Wars of Religion are over and everyone is openly fighting over territory and trade! Hence my period begins with the late 17th century. XD
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)

“and also claimed he'd never consummated the marriage (something his wife contested).”

Right, of course, non-consummation could be used as EVIDENCE of lack of consent, in particular cases! Which often led to lay confusion about what non-consummation meant.

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 07:56 pm (UTC)(link)
that age-gaps especially where the man was significantly older than the woman were Not Cool

Whereas in my period, historians are at pains to tell us modern readers that contemporaries would not have batted an eye at a huge age difference among nobility and royalty, and that when your first wife died, of course you married another 17-yo to raise and/or replace the kids from your first marriage--and that was the nicest husbands!

Uncle/niece marriages, or marrying below your class, were the things that were *done* by nobles and royals, but definitely not the norm and quite scandalous.

ETA: BUT ALSO - fwiw I have also seen the occasional fantasy commentator who has indeed probably been told some of this at some point and has interpreted this as "our age-of-consummation norms are accurate to the mediaevals" which is itself deeply stupid, in much the same way that the same kind of person often takes "actually mediaeval and early modern women were central to the economic unit and operated with a particular kind of significant influence/etc" as "mediaeval and early-modern culture weren't actually virulently misogynistic and anti-woman", which is ALSO not correct!

This and this!

"well this was the norm in 1830 and The Past Was Worse so it must've been even worse in 1330"

I have facepalmed at this very argument!

This is part of why Shakespeare set Romeo and Juliet in Italy (Those Crazy Italians and their Crazy Thing With Marrying Off Babies), and you are still supposed to think that Paris and Capulet are being gross and creepy to marry off Juliet to an older man that young, it's just expected that Italians Are Weird And Creepy.

Huh. Yeah, a number of the examples I can think of off the top of my head, from 1000-1800, have involved Italians, but usually intermarrying with German or French nobles/royals.

As for Italian-internal practices among "normal" people, the only thing I would know well enough to speak to is Renaissance Florence. To copy-paste the stats from John Najemy's History of Florence:

Among all classes, men in the city married in smaller numbers and later in life than did men in the countryside. And while there was less variation in the ages at which women married, the city had many more widows than the contado. In all cities of Florentine Tuscany surveyed by the Catasto, the average age of marriage for women was just under 19, and for men just under 28. In the Florentine contado it was over 19 for women and just under 24 for men. But in Florence the average age of women marrying for the first time was between 17 and 18, and the vast majority of women who married did so by their early twenties; those who did not mostly entered convents. For men in the city, the average age at first marriage was around 30, but 12% of all men never married. The large age difference between husbands and wives (averaging 12 years, and in many cases much more) accounts for the startling number of urban widows: 25% of women over the age of 12 were widows in 1427. Many were widowed in their twenties, and few ever remarried.

You also get stats from the police records in Renaissance Florence (scandalous among contemporaries for its pre-Savonorola laissez-faire attitude toward male same-sex relationships) relating to sodomy, where, say 90+% of the "passive" partners recorded between 1478-1502* are below 18, and 90+% of the "active" partners are above 18. The passive partners start at age 6 and really take off at 13, peaking in the 15-18 range. Which is skeevy as hell by modern standards! But not UNHISTORICAL as some seem to believe.

* Michael Rocke, Forbidden Friendships: Homosexuality and Male Culture in Renaissance Florence.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)

I mean to be fair I should have made it clear that this was an area where that was the perception by English people of Italians (which would have been heavily depending on Specific Stories About Rich Folk itself, as well as a hell of exotification and the combination of Italy Is Civilization and Italy Is Horrible Decadence), so; in terms of definites all I know is that I know in Southern Europe things WERE somewhat different, and my social history grounding in those regions is insufficient to be able to make definite statements, other than a general awareness that among the nobility in the city-states, women were much more cloistered/controlled in their movements, and often married off younger and so on.

But English PERCEPTION of Italy was that Shakespeare could set his play there and have it be a Feud with Creepy Nobles Forcibly Marrying Babies . . . .without it appearing to be him actually saying "English nobility sucks" and getting in shit for it. XD Italy was, in terms of the cultural imaginary, familiar enough to be able to set stories that made sense to the audience, while being foreign enough to get away with things he might not otherwise have been able to get away with (and exotic enough to be exciting).

Having an ENGLISH noble say things like "younger than [13] are happy mothers made" would revulse the crowd to the point that you'd have to, like, somehow have Paris be VILLAINOUS and probably even somehow not REALLY a noble, or else you're implying that Our Own Nobility is somehow very bad (and they'll get upset with you); having an Italian one makes use of the "oh those weird and crazy Italians" enough that it's just a signal that both Capulet and Paris himself (who is a relative to the prince) are selfish and semi-corrupt and care more about their own benefit than about making good choices for the realm (as Paris is enmeshing his family with Capulet's which is going to make it harder for the Prince to properly adjudicate and manage the feud's detrimental effect on Verona; Mercrutio's behaviour and enmeshment with the Montagues is doing the same on that side; and the Prince is doing exactly fuck all to prevent this; thus spreading the responsibility for "this feud is wrecking Verona" around nice and thick).

Were a few of those English nobles probably still marrying and consummating with teenagers? Yeah probably but that doesn't mean anyone would TALK about it or publicly APPROVE of it. Because social norms are different from social approval are different from legality. XD But yeah.

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 08:29 pm (UTC)(link)
a general awareness that among the nobility in the city-states, women were much more cloistered/controlled in their movements, and often married off younger and so on.

From what I have read, including those two sources, Renaissance Florence was demographically a lot more like classical Athens in this sense, in that you get the upper class women cloistered, married off at young ages, men having to wait until they were almost 30 to get married, and a lot more homosexuality due to men having far fewer options. The government even came up with state-sponsored prostitution at one point to get the men to stop fucking each other and start fucking lower class women like God meant them to!

Having an ENGLISH noble say things like "younger than [13] are happy mothers made" would revulse the crowd to the point that you'd have to, like, somehow have Paris be VILLAINOUS and probably even somehow not REALLY a noble, or else you're implying that Our Own Nobility is somehow very bad (and they'll get upset with you); having an Italian one makes use of the "oh those weird and crazy Italians" enough

Ah, that makes sense and is not something I would have picked up on! 16th century English perceptions of Italians is too far outside my wheelhouse. I have an idea of who was doing what outside my period (including your points about women as economic actors, the older age of marriage outside the upper classes, individual cases of medieval and Renaissance political marriages, etc.), but what was perceived how by whom outside my period is not something I can speak to. Thank you!

Were a few of those English nobles probably still marrying and consummating with teenagers? Yeah probably but that doesn't mean anyone would TALK about it or publicly APPROVE of it.

From earlier in the century, off the top of my head, Catherine Howard comes to mind (she wasn't a super young teenager, but the age difference was significant), and Mary, Queen of Scots (she was young, but she and her husband were roughly the same age, and the marriage might never have been consummated), and Lady Jane Grey (but she was 16, not 13, and I don't know if it was consummated, and she and her husband were roughly the same age)--was public perception of these marriages (the marriage, not the head-chopping part) that bad? (Oh, lol, I just realized all three were executed. Only one by her husband. :P)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-06-18 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)

Haha so. Poor Howard: yes, honestly, except you can’t criticize the king so instead it became important to portray her badly instead so that somehow it’s her fault that she’s in this skeezy marriage. Gotta love it.

The other two as you note were either not big age differences and/or were unclear if they were consummated (and in Mary’s case was Extremely Political).

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 08:49 pm (UTC)(link)
so instead it became important to portray her badly instead so that somehow it’s her fault that she’s in this skeezy marriage. Gotta love it.

Yeah, that checks out. There's a lot of that in all periods.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-08 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
and you are still supposed to think that Paris and Capulet are being gross and creepy to marry off Juliet to an older man that young, it's just expected that Italians Are Weird And Creepy.

Okay, so, question that came up a few months later! (If you don't mind.) Does that "Weird Italians" thing also apply to Juliet being the first one to bring up marriage, i.e. propose? What *would* an English marriage proposal look like in those days? (Assuming a marriage of love and not an arranged marriage.)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-09 12:35 am (UTC)(link)
Not at all, no; Juliet's active participation and even driving of the love-match/etc is part of a different thing at work in the play, but would not have been perceived as particularly shocking to an audience of that time, either. The idea of women as being INHERENTLY more Chaste/less sexual/etc than men is an Enlightenment thing, not a mediaeval or early-modern one. Chastity and celibacy and virginity and so on were certainly viewed as virtuous in a woman, but part of the virtue was in fact that she had mastered what was her inherently more sexual and lustful nature, and Juliet is quite comfortably situated to be unremarkable (except possibly for her eloquence and her strength of character and personality) to the audience she was written for. (Which was itself was often Uncomfortable with the idea of TOO much Female Cloistered Virginity because that was all kinds of Papist, and while the currents of how the Catholic and Protestant parts of English society at that time interacted are complex, Protestant ideals were certainly coming out on top.)

And to be clear, Shakespeare is absolutely and deliberately using the exoticism of his Italian location to talk ABOUT things in English society with plausible deniability; he is using his setting as a way to throw things into a sharper more dramatic relief, but without either a) actually saying that his OWN nobility (who could, you know, fuck his life right over) were that bad, or b) making his audience defensive and annoyed at his play (which he needed them to come see in order to make money).

Feuding and violent armed brawls in the streets were absolutely a London Problem, but an Italian setting let him ramp everything up to 11, AND avoid the risk of being seen as critical of the powers that actually had control over his life and/or their partisans.

English women were absolutely seen as more robust (wholesomely so) than their Continental and especially Southern European counterparts. Obviously we lack as MUCH documentary evidence for How These Things Are Done at that point in time than we have in, eg, 1750, let alone 1890, but there's no indication that it was particularly shocking for the woman to be the one declaring love and pushing the marriage. To some extent, particularly in eras where war was not an ever-present constant, if it didn't roll out that way it was because bluntly SHE was a more valuable commodity than he was - he might have more power, but given mortality rates for women in childbirth, unless there was a war on frankly most fertile women would have at least two suitors actively pursuing her.

I will note, however, that Juliet does not actually propose; what she says is this:

Three words, dear Romeo, and good night indeed.
If that thy bent of love be honourable,
Thy purpose marriage, send me word to-morrow,
By one that I'll procure to come to thee,
Where and what time thou wilt perform the rite;
And all my fortunes at thy foot I'll lay
And follow thee my lord throughout the world.


She says if his intent is marriage - if all of his love-pleading is an honourable and morally upright one, seeking a moral and licit outcome, rather than to just exploit her - then tell her where to meet him. And that's absolutely within the bounds of normal.


Now there IS a thing going on with her specific and active and delighted mutual involvement in the love-process, which is a literary one and is Shakespeare basically shit-talking Petrarch (who was at the time a kind of overwhelming Exemplar of Love/Love Poetry/Etc in elite contexts) and saying Petrarchan love (and sonnets) sucked and his own portrayals (and sonnets) were way better. But that's only coincidentally entwined with the "usage of exotic locales to talk shit about local problems without getting called out for it".

(You'd think it would be moreso, given Petrarch is, well, Italian! But no, because Petrarch was Italian of a couple hundred years ago and part of the Intellectual Movement that Defined Elite Everything at that point in time so he wasn't the same KIND of Italian as Those Hotheads of Right Now Brawling in the Streets, because humans are very good at this kind of curly thinking.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-09 12:51 am (UTC)(link)
This was amazingly educational, thank you!

She says if his intent is marriage - if all of his love-pleading is an honourable dand morally upright one, seeking a moral and licit outcome, rather than to just exploit her - then tell her where to meet him.

Interesting, because to me, a marriage proposal is indicating that you're interested in marrying and asking the other person if they are too, and that seems to be what Juliet is communicating. What nuance am I missing here?

Also, are there any sources you can recommend that would talk about the rituals of marriages and proposals during this period, in some detail?
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-09 02:19 am (UTC)(link)

:tilts head: So by your definition any time a person says or indicates "I would be interested in marrying you" or "if you asked I would say yes", that's an active proposal?

For me the nuance is: she's not saying "will you marry me?". She's saying "if you're interested in marrying me, I will show up where you tell me to go and say yes". She says this because he has already gone at length in declaring his love and also figuratively pledging faithfulness/indicating he really, really wants to have sex with her. She's saying, yes, I'm amenable to that as long as it's in this Honourable/Correct fashion, so if that's what you want then let me know where I'm supposed to show up and say "yes".

In all of their interactions, he is the initiator; the closest she comes is him overhearing her private musings about how hot and perfect he is. The most she does is first a) not TOTALLY shoot him down/tell him to get fucked when he's approaching her at the party, and then b) vehemently admit that yeah he totally just heard her say all of that, does HE mean he what he just implied about wanting her?

Now in a literary sense, that second part is remarkable and part of Shakespeare's extremely conscious and deliberate deconstruction of Petrarch. (I'm assuming you're familiar with Petrarch and Laura and their Totally Onesided Love Affair ending in her perfect chaste death and his perfection of a sonnet form): Romeo writes stiff and banal Petrarchan sonnets to Rosalind, who could care less whether he's alive, in proper Petrarchan form - until he meets Juliet, who is NOT silent, sexless and remote, but who answers him and answers him passionately and agreeably and - critically - in joint Shakespearean sonnets and is basically as close to the anti-Laura as an archetype as you can get. But Romeo still always initiates, and Juliet's responses are just emphatic "yes I like that and am totally encouraging that implication you've made that you want to marry me and then have a lot of totally licit amazing sex, where did you want me to show up".

Also, are there any sources you can recommend that would talk about the rituals of marriages and proposals during this period, in some detail?

Hrm. So I am not currently aware of any off the top of my head that were like "here is how people in Tudor England asked each other to marry one another"; this is an area where I do articles, primary sources, and of course a huge number of course-packs from when I actually did my degree, which are filled with facsimiles of articles and primary sources. A quick google tells me that the current favourite layperson accessible book is by someone named Carol McGrath, but I haven't read it and tend to squint warily at popular history books whose authors' major degrees are in English.

A quick google reminds me of Courtship and Constraint: Rethinking the Making of Marriage in Tudor England by Diane O'Hara who I recall threading the needle well between the ideas of individual choice that were present and the community and culture contexts; if you want to keep going with its relationship to these kinds of texts, Marriage Relationships in Tudor Political Drama looks like it might apply. And, of course, there's (careful) looking at the era through its literature, which is by and large quite content with women being pretty clear about who they want (and who they don't) - including women framed by the narrative to be Perfectly Acceptable and Respectable, Thanks, particularly when "common" or "ordinary".

mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-09 07:20 am (UTC)(link)
So by your definition any time a person says or indicates "I would be interested in marrying you" or "if you asked I would say yes", that's an active proposal?

Yep, that's pretty much the definition of a proposal in my book. I don't remember exactly what words I used to propose to my wife, but definitely not "Will you marry me?" Something along the lines of "You know the Supreme Court decision this week means we could get married." *pause indicating the ball was in her court* I was proposing that we get married if she was game, just as Juliet is proposing that they get married if Romeo is game.

But regardless of semantics, your explanation of the Petrarch deconstruction is fascinating. I am familiar with Petrarch and Laura at a superficial level, but not in any way that involves knowing what Shakespeare did with that tradition.

A quick google tells me that the current favourite layperson accessible book is by someone named Carol McGrath, but I haven't read it and tend to squint warily at popular history books whose authors' major degrees are in English.

Yeah, this is why I always ask for recs if I can. Because I can google with the best of them, but if it's outside your area of expertise, you're as likely to find BS as anything else.

A quick google reminds me of Courtship and Constraint: Rethinking the Making of Marriage in Tudor England

I will take a look at this, thank you! You are extraordinarily knowledgeable and helpful.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-09 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep, that's pretty much the definition of a proposal in my book.

Hmm. Interesting! By that standard there has never been a point where it was socially improper for women to do something that definition would term a proposal; there have literally always been socially acceptable ways for women in any of the societies I'm familiar with to indicate to men "yes I would be interested in marrying you". Some of them are more restricted than others, or more ritualized; the Regency well-to-do woman would have some particular social dances to make, but that still amounts to communicating "yes you should get around to asking this out loud."

In terms of social expectations I'm familiar with in early-modern (and previous mediaeval), it was expected for the man to make the first public and formally recognized motions, but as the woman it was pretty normal to make it as clear as Juliet does here that the answer will be "yes", and he can just go ahead and DO that. (In a non-covert scenario this would of course involve more than just finding a clergyman to witness; it would also involve talking to her father, hammering down the dowry, posting notice of the marriage with the parish, and so on.) The formal proposal, if you like, the societal motions that put a recognized marriage in process, are definitely male-led and it would seem weird to the audience to have the woman driving that and making those actions happen.

This is something that the Courtship and Constraint will delve into - in terms of understanding early-modern marriage it's important to understand how intensely you were part of a community which universally had its nose in all of everyone's business, so that contracting a marriage even out of individual love-match (or like match, or whatever match, but done by you personally for your own reasons) was still a communal event and involved a lot of communication via behaviours and norms.

And a woman it verbally clear that If He Wants To Get That Started, That's Cool, She's Totally Onboard is 100% within norms; Juliet is totally unremarkable in that part.

Also to be fair to Carol McGrath I have ALSO not found her work being excoriated or screamed about on any of my mediaevalist/early-modernist spots, so my guess is that she wouldn't be terrible as a foundation/starting point as long as one keeps in mind It's Popular History And Probably Simplified. But yeah.


but not in any way that involves knowing what Shakespeare did with that tradition.

So if you imagine Petrarch as the Trope Norm - the idea that he and Laura were the Epitome of Perfect, Strongest, Purest Love, and that this was a literary THING - and you start looking at how often Shakespeare invokes this trope to explicitly then send it up, undermine it, or outright point and mock it, it becomes very clear that for whatever reason, Will found this trope personally irritating and stupid and wanted everyone to agree with him. R&J is merely one of the times that he explicitly sets up "here is a Perfect Petrarchan Swain and His Remote, Disdainful/Indifferent Love! And here's why this is the stupidest fucking thing and my resolution will involve bombing it and then stamping on the rubble."*



*tho ironically his sonnets are not among them, and his sonnet cycle is actually a deeply cynical and dark little story! But they're very pretty.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-10 12:15 am (UTC)(link)
This has been very eye-opening, I always operated on the assumption that "Will you marry me?" was just one of many ways of proposing marriage. What about "I want to marry you"?

I have ALSO not found her work being excoriated or screamed about on any of my mediaevalist/early-modernist spots, so my guess is that she wouldn't be terrible as a foundation/starting point as long as one keeps in mind It's Popular History And Probably Simplified.

Good to know, thank you!

you start looking at how often Shakespeare invokes this trope to explicitly then send it up, undermine it, or outright point and mock it, it becomes very clear that for whatever reason, Will found this trope personally irritating and stupid and wanted everyone to agree with him.

Huh! Things I did not know. If this was covered in any of my English classes, I have long since forgotten it.

By the way, my 18th century discussion group (hosted at [personal profile] cahn's blog) has been branching out into medieval and Renaissance topics lately (as you can see), so if you ever wanted to drop by, you would be more than welcome! We have no medievalists among us, and we are eager to learn.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-10 02:09 am (UTC)(link)
Well like: we're back at the "what is a proposal and how are we defining one".

Our culture (given I believe you're an English speaker out of the states) tends to think that there are stages to contracting a state we call "marriage", which is a particular kind of pairbonding that we because of our culture and history put HUGE social and emotional weight on. You start in a state of not-married, even if you are engaged in Romantic Partner Behaviours and agreements of relationship with another person. Then there's something called a "proposal" which puts us into a state we call "engaged to be married", that is not a legal commitment but is a huge SOCIAL commitment, so that now we are in this state we are MORE firmly "partnered" with the other person than we were previously even if literally nothing else changes; then we engage in a legal ritual called "marriage" which results in a massive legal and social state change.

"Proposals" matter at all because they're the trigger for that middle state of "engaged", where you're more pairbonded than you were before you were "engaged" but less than when you're "married". What counts as a "proposal" is going to depend on what the people involved (most importantly the two halves of the pairbond, but to some extent also the rest of society around them) consider sufficient to trigger this change from "not engaged" to "engaged".

By and large I would say most people require that to be some kind of active request from one party to the other to Enter This State With Them, answered by the other person with some kind of agreement. I do not think most people would agree that literally any indication that marriage is desired by one party is enough to count as a proposal for their purposes; it's extremely common for people to discuss in detail whether or not moving on to being "engaged" is something they want, and it's frankly a huge TROPE in our culture that women start dropping Huge Clear "Hints" up to and including "are you EVER going to ask me to marry you?" when commitment phobic men have not yet done so, with the very clear indication that they don't consider themselves in that "engaged" state yet, nor such questions to be Them Proposing. (And such questions make clear - and the prevalence of the trope itself makes clear - that there's definitely a cultural understanding that it is the man's job to initiate this state change to "engaged" via the correct form of the question).

On the other hand in terms of any given individual, what counts as triggering it is basically whatever discussion THEY have that they feel is adequate to announce to the rest of the world they're engaged. So could "I want to marry you" be enough to count as a proposal? Sure, if both parts of that pair-bond think it is. This is a human communication and social indicator matter, not a chemical state change, y'know?

But I wouldn't think MOST people would consider their partner just saying that to be "a proposal", and if articles and history or sociology books are discussing things like "was it appropriate for women to propose? No not at all", I would consider myself safe to assume that what they mean is "it wasn't appropriate for a woman to flat out say to a man 'will you marry me?', a question which the answer to either constitutes an agreement to be engaged or a rejection of the proposal/idea outright". I would definitely not assume they mean it wasn't appropriate for women to make it clear that they'd ACCEPT a proposal if the guy made one.

And, coming back around, I definitely would not expect an Elizabethan or Jacobean context to frame the statement "I want to marry you" as a proposal that the person saying it enter into the "engaged" state with the person it is being said to. It's just a statement about their feelings and desires and doesn't even indicate intent; it's as likely to be followed by "I want to marry you, but I can't" as anything else.

In re Shakespeare and Petrarch, it's extremely possible that they never got into it. I was extremely lucky to MOSTLY have Shakespeare teachers bar one and his was the worst class who were also rigorous in their scholarship of Shakespeare's context and treated him like an actual living person who spent decades of his life writing plays, performing in and directing plays both his own and other people's, and otherwise being a real human who lived in a real city (and happened to be a sodding genius), rather than some kind of Platonic Writer; it meant they were way more alert to intertextuality and intertextuality that wasn't necessarily "literary" (ie didn't conform to literary theory). It was invaluable to have eg the one who was like "hey did you notice how Romeo starts this play as a not particularly kind satire of a Petrarchan lover, but the minute he's talking with Juliet they're speaking in SHAKESPEARE's sonnet form?" or for that matter the other one who pointed out that we had to remember that just about literally any modern-language version of Shakespeare, or for that matter any version that wasn't literally a facsimile of the First Folio, was going to be a product of editorial choices and sometimes those editorial choices were quite sneaky and influential, because we got our knowledge of these plays from real physical OBJECTS, physical books that we got a hold of, and those books have an object history, and that also matters (and there's some damn weird printing anomalies in the actual books themselves).

Then I went into the mediaeval and early modern social history stuff and just kept diving onwards. XD
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-10 03:53 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, thank you for clarifying your definition of a proposal.

Then there's something called a "proposal" which puts us into a state we call "engaged to be married"

My definition is: a proposal is a thing you say that commits you to be engaged and puts the ball in the other person's court, such that if they accept, the two of you are now engaged. A proposal can't enter you into an engaged state, because you can't engage someone else, but a proposal can cover your half of the consent, if you imply that engagement automatically follows if the other person says the right thing.

I guess it comes down to, suppose an exchange went like this:

Partner A: "If you're interested in getting married, tell me when and where and I'll show up."
Partner B: "Okay. I choose tomorrow at 2 pm at the church."

Would they be engaged to get to be married tomorrow at 2 pm? In my world, yes: that's proposal + acceptance = engagement. In Juliet's world, maybe not?

Likewise, if "I want to marry you" (or antyhing else) takes place in a context where it can logically be followed by

*pause to indicate ball's in the other person's court*
Partner B: "Okay!" (or some more romantic or formal way of accepting)

and they are thus engaged, that's a proposal in my book. And my "books", literally--hunting through some of my Kindle selection using the search function earlier, I found a number of things the authors called "proposals" that consisted of one person expressing their interest in marriage with implied or stated commitment upon acceptance, then waiting to see what the other person would say.

I think this is where I got the idea that there are many ways to phrase proposals, direct and indirect. At least some English-speaking authors from the States (you are correct) and Britain also use it this way.

If there are some ways of proposing that are socially acceptable for women to utter and others that are not, then sure, I think we're on roughly the same page.

I was extremely lucky to MOSTLY have Shakespeare teachers who were also rigorous in their scholarship of Shakespeare's context

I am delighted on your behalf and wish I'd had literature teachers I clicked with at all! (I had a couple, to be fair, but only in Classics, which is how I ended up pursuing degrees in Classics.)

sometimes those editorial choices were quite sneaky and influential

Ooh, any examples you want to throw our way?
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-11 05:02 am (UTC)(link)
So the one that I remember off the top of my head is Hero's funeral in Much Ado About Nothing: there are certain lines in that scene that almost all editions attribute to Claudio. This only makes sense: these are lines about asking forgiveness and so on, and the whole POINT of the funeral is, of course, that Claudio is required to DO it in order to atone for what he did etc etc etc.

. . . .except none of the original sources attribute these lines to Claudio. He's THERE; he's on-scene. But the lines in the actual primary sources are given to Benedick.

Now as an editor you have to make a choice here. It doesn't seem like it makes sense for Benedick to say these lines (it's most of the beginning of this scene), because Benedick isn't the one who needs forgiveness? And we do have other instances where we have far more clear evidence that this kind of thing is a printer's error: there are a couple of cases where we've got multiple examples of the play that are all "good" copies/versions except that in one of them a line is attributed to someone it makes no sense to attribute it to, and we DEFINITELY have plenty of examples of printer's errors in all kinds of OTHER texts.

So it's PLAUSIBLE that this is a printer's error.

. . . but we don't HAVE any other copies of this particular play. So we have no actual evidence for that. All we have is the fact that it's a bit weird that Benedick would be saying these things instead of Claudio.

The prof that first pointed this out went on to note, however, that it's only weird if you're supposed to see Claudio as a sympathetic and "heroic" character; if you're NOT supposed to see him as kinda shallow and kind of a dick, if you're supposed to see his about-turn on the topic of Hero after her death as genuine remorse. If that's what Shakespeare MEANT you to see, if you assume that, then sure: it makes most sense that this is a printer's error and you reassign these lines to Claudio, who clearly means them.

. . . but that's not the only way to read Claudio, and Shakespeare isn't always inclined to portray his "heroes" in the best light. Claudio IS shallow enough to throw Hero off on the strength of a rumour from someone he doesn't even like or supposedly trust, and without any internal conflict about it, and moreover to do so in public in as cruel a way as possible, because it offends HIM that he might not have a pure bride.

Moreover one of the problems that's really solved by this funeral rite and so on is the conflict between Claudio and Benedick. At this point in the play, they're bound by military brotherhood and comradeship and friendship, but Beatrice has also issued her ultimatum to Benedick: if you love me, you'll do what I CAN'T and make Claudio pay for what he's done to my cousin ("oh God that I were a man! I would eat his heart in the marketplace").

And reluctantly, he's agreed to do it. The revelation of the whole deception and lie saves Benedick from having to duel his friend as much as it saves anyone else: he's proved himself a worthy suitor for Beatrice (choosing her and her righteous cause over Claudio and his shallowness), and now he's saved from having to (probably, because he's a better soldier/fighter) kill his younger friend. Therefore it's extremely in HIS interests to chivvy Claudio through this whole thing.

We have no other evidence, but who you assign these lines to is going to affect how Claudio is portrayed: is he penitently going through this ritual of apology to Hero's supposed ghost, or is he silently waiting for someone else to get on with it so he can LOOK like he's doing this (so as not to be in conflict with his buddy and, you know, look like a heartless asshole to everyone else in the world) and Benedick is the one prodding him thru, and doing a bunch of it on his behalf?

As an editor, you have to make that decision - and most editions not only decide to give the words to Claudio, they don't even footnote it. Heck even some editions of the First Folio in the original spelling (but as a newly typset thing, rather than a facsimile aka a direct image-copy) "correct" the line attribution without saying.

If you're not lucky with your undergrad profs you don't find this shit until deep into grad seminars, if then. XD
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-11 06:16 am (UTC)(link)
Huh! That is really interesting, I had no idea. Thank you!

If you're not lucky with your undergrad profs you don't find this shit until deep into grad seminars, if then. XD

Yep, and if you're sufficiently unlucky early on, you end up deciding not to pursue literature long enough to even end up in those grad seminars.
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-12-09 04:53 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a fascinating conversation, thank you! :D

I, uh, was the one who brought up the question to mildred about Tudor marriage proposals, and possibly due to the differences in the way we have been culturally exposed to marriage proposals, I understand it (and asked the question) in the sense you mean rather than the sense she does. That is to say, "so, I'd totally be up with this idea of marrying you" is different from the actual question "Will you marry me?" and I'm specifically interested in how one might characterize the latter. Part of the distinction is that I am also talking about characters who have a sense of the "tropes" of the day (and sometimes use them, though more-or-less ironically), so while they have already had conversations in the former sense and have an understanding that they both want to get married, they'd also have some impetus to do whatever sort of contemporary tropey thing was called for. In 21st century US, of course, the contemporary tropey thing would be something like the man getting down on one knee, holding out a ring box with a diamond engagement ring, and saying, "Will you marry me?" This is the kind of thing I'd be interested in -- not how they get to the proposal (for this particular application), but what are specific tropey things that might occur in the proposal itself in this time period. (E.g., Does the man kneel? I understand there are betrothal rings -- which does apply here -- but does he present it as part of the proposal? Are there specific words that one would expect to use from contemporary culture? I don't need a book necessarily! Though the ones you have recommended look neat and I am definitely interested!)

Not to say all the rest of this isn't wildly interesting, because it is and I'm absolutely here for all of it, thank you again! <3
Edited (html tags, why) 2022-12-09 16:54 (UTC)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-09 05:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Np!

That's definitely something I would want to dig into before I gave you an answer I felt super confident about, because I'll admit when I was neck deep in this my interests were far more about broader questions of social roles and how the relationships started and reached that point, and so on, but I will say that my sense and my memory is that a lot of it is ironically much less ritualized.

Like modern "proper" proposals are quite ritualized, perhaps because secular culture has so few of them comparatively; ironically, literally as I think of this, a lot of the trappings of it are interestingly feudal and I'm now distracted by a line of thought that wonders if this came out of the Victorian deconstruction of feudal and chivalric tropes specifically and nearly solely into the shapes of courtly romance*.

But that digresses: the point being, this level of EXTREMELY ritualized behaviours around The Engagement is, to be honest, comparatively new as far as I know.

My sense from memory is that there are definitely steps that were most often followed: a private conversation to obtain consent/agreement, either before or after telling the putative bride's family (if this is an independent love-match almost certainly before; if there's more familial or community Interference, very possibly after) in order to get them on-side; there's an exchange of gifts, often but not exclusively rings; there's the posting of the banns; and also there's now a bit more leeway for the bride and groom presumptive to act like they're sexually interested in each other in public without social opprobrium/censure (gossip? probably! negative toned gossip, less so) - nothing dramatic, but walking together publicly arm in arm, or sitting together at church, or whatever. WEARING the gifts publicly, whether it's a ring, or some other kind of jewelry, or garment, or whatever.

And as long as the community on the whole/etc doesn't disapprove for some reason, that will also be acknowledged and accepted. Then after the required amount of time for the banns to be in the parish, you get married.




*So this is a tangent: in courtly romance the knight is almost always either directly feudally - that is, militarily - sworn to either the Lady in question, or to her husband. (the latter theoretically not being a problem because the courtly romance is supposedly chaste**) This feudal relationship has specific rituals attached to it, not least of which is the kneeling in homage that is part of the specific declaration of military fealty and loyalty. In its original form, this chivalric and feudal context is actually a significant factor and part, and plays into the politics and the concepts of the whole, in ways that are easy to miss if you're looking at it through the wrong lens, which the Victorians often/usually did.

I would have to follow this up but I am now having some DEFINITE thoughts about the way that the Victorians took what they understood about mediaeval fealty, essentially stripped it of context down to a simplified set of courtly gestures, and then focused those gestures in particular around ideas of male and female romance, and so ported the rituals of homage into the rituals of courtship wholesale.

**Narrator: Actually, this caused many problems.
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-12-09 11:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I mean, I also think the broader questions are the more interesting ones! (I forgot to say in my last comment, but like mildred I had no idea about Romeo and Juliet as a response to Petrarch and that was extremely neat to read about!) It's just that the proposal question is the question that I have right at this minute :D

I definitely had the impression that private sexual behavior was fine for betrothed couples who weren't nobility -- would this also be true for higher-class (but non-royal, non-arranged-marriage) couples? (The couple in question would both be children of knights -- one from an old family, one a merchant family fairly recently knighted.) In either case, presumably kissing, necking, etc. (that is to say, sexual behavior that is well short of causing pregnancy) in private is considered reasonable?

This feudal relationship has specific rituals attached to it, not least of which is the kneeling in homage that is part of the specific declaration of military fealty and loyalty. In its original form, this chivalric and feudal context is actually a significant factor and part, and plays into the politics and the concepts of the whole, in ways that are easy to miss if you're looking at it through the wrong lens, which the Victorians often/usually did.

I would have to follow this up but I am now having some DEFINITE thoughts about the way that the Victorians took what they understood about mediaeval fealty, essentially stripped it of context down to a simplified set of courtly gestures, and then focused those gestures in particular around ideas of male and female romance, and so ported the rituals of homage into the rituals of courtship wholesale.


Whoa. I hadn't thought about any of it this way and this is wildly interesting to me. I would like to know more about these thoughts!
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-10 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
VALID.

I definitely had the impression that private sexual behavior was fine for betrothed couples who weren't nobility -- would this also be true for higher-class (but non-royal, non-arranged-marriage) couples? (The couple in question would both be children of knights -- one from an old family, one a merchant family fairly recently knighted.) In either case, presumably kissing, necking, etc. (that is to say, sexual behavior that is well short of causing pregnancy) in private is considered reasonable?

I mean it will depend a bit on exactly when, and what the currents are around them, and also their own, like, sense of what's proper - a bit like now, tbh.

The Moral Ideal, of course, is that you have None Of That until you are legally married, because that's bad; some people will even be that kind of Dedicated, and there's certainly the possibility of SOME people tutting if they think there are indications that the couple are fooling around before the vows, even if there's no actual penetrative intercourse going on.

And of course beyond some kissing, only p-i-v is moral ANYWAY, so. (And that's EXTREMELY wide as a cultural attitude, much more so than the variety of attitudes to how bad having sex while betrothed but not married might be.)

But like, there's a difference between "officially" socially allowed, and "this will probably get you tutted at or maybe even scolded by some, but will be considered natural and par for the course by others, and still more will pretend 'they don't know'"; and even more between that and attitudes of "well we all know we're not SUPPOSED to fuck until we're actually married but also we all know that's stupid and nobody actually DOES that, and nobody's gonna give anyone else shit for it either". And which of those it's gonna be will also change depending on whether there's a general or localised bout of Moral Reforming going on, and so on.

That said OVERALL yeah nobody's going to be like SHOCKED!!! and APPALLED!!! or otherwise find it totally outside the norm if they're making out in private, although even betrothed it's quite possible there's only going to be SO long that they're actually going to be left alone in private before someone's keeping an eye on. You've got a reasonable range of potential attitudes from other people from "literally nobody is ever ACTUALLY a virgin - either sex - on their wedding night if they've lived in the same town as their betrothed, don't be stupid, why would they be" to "I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE BETROTHED THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS" and everything in between to play with, with the bulk of people being definitely around "it's totally normal for an engaged couple to go mess around behind a tree when they think nobody's looking, bless them."

The different families might even hold different attitudes, or different PARTS of the family. But Officially, of course, you're not supposed to do any of that before you're properly married, that's wicked.


XD The Victorian use of the distorted mediaeval mirror in their own sense of self and of history would take way more than I have time for here, but yeah it's something I'm now pondering.
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-12-10 10:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent, thank you!

...I'm kinda realizing that I have read WAY too much Victorian or Victorian-inflected fiction where even kissing between an engaged couple is like WELL WE CAN'T SHOW THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENING, WOULD BE CORRUPTING TO THE YOUTH. So I appreciate the sanity check!

And of course beyond some kissing, only p-i-v is moral ANYWAY, so. (And that's EXTREMELY wide as a cultural attitude, much more so than the variety of attitudes to how bad having sex while betrothed but not married might be.)

Oh wow! This I didn't realize. (Though [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard and [personal profile] selenak have been telling me about Henry IV and how Eupraxia asked to divorce him for unspeakable sexual acts, which they both guessed were something like anal sex. So I knew it was a moral attitude, but not that it was so wide as a cultural attitude!)

I'd be quite interested if you ever get around to articulating more about the Victorians looking in a mediaeval mirror!
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-10 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
XD Right, and I mean the other thing is, that's also Victorian FICTION, and generally mainstream/very famous/"respectable" fiction as well; it, ah, does not in any way necessarily reflect Victorian reality. Especially not outside a few very specific areas of society who Really Really Cared about Propriety.

Fiction would have us believe that just about nobody in the 1890s so much as swore; reality is we have literal notices from baseball games of organizers begging people to remember that LADIES might be present so STOP CALLING YOUR OPPONENTS "FUCKING CUNT FACED ASS LICKERS" ACROSS THE PITCH.

Fiction(alized memoire) would have you believe that Laura Ingalls' father didn't want his girls going near the rail camp because they'd hear Shocking Language; in reality (and we have this attested in her actual journals) it was because they knew damn well that was a great way for girls to get assaulted. Fiction's great for telling us what people would accept in their fiction when it was published, and that's NOT unimportant! Buut.

ANYWAY that's a tangent: basically, if you WANT to have some influences in their life be REALLY STRICT about Proper Behaviour, that's definitely something you CAN attribute to a guardian, and even subject probably the young lady of the two of them to Lectures about Chaste and Virtuous Behaviour. On the other hand if you'd like things to be a bit more relaxed, you can also do that; it'll just be a matter of, like, how ELSE you're portraying the others around them. If there's a particularly sanctimonious aunt or uncle, they'll probably have Views; on the other hand the knights that are their fathers are probably mostly like, could you make sure she's NOT visibly pregnant when we actually have the ceremony, That's Awkward.

And there will be gossip! But there will literally be gossip regardless. So much gossip. So much. XD In every direction. Gossip if they do too much PDA! but also gossip about "well what kind of marriage is that even going to be, anyway, I mean how do you end up with heirs if they can't even bother to hop into bed?" if there's not ENOUGH PDA.


In re kinds of sex: yeah anything other than PIV will be viewed as unnatural and gross and perverted and did I mention gross? some "fondling" as foreplay yeah okay but even too much of that speaks to, you know. Ugh. Pervert. It's often less a conscious moral thing and more of a matter of disgust. I mean, we still have that today; we have hundreds of sex educators out there patiently explaining to people that the wide variety of sex act desires humans can have is very neutral and no enjoying this, that or the other kind of sexual contact more than p-i-v sex doesn't mean anything about you, it's fine, relax, you're not "broken" or bad or dirty, etc . . . because we need them, because this is the previous absolute set of beliefs we inherited.

Of course that doesn't mean people didn't DO it, or even rapidly find out once they started messing around that they kinda preferred it, or even tell themselves stories about how eg they were still a virgin as long as they hadn't actually had a penis in their vagina but these other things could be done, whatever, any more than it does now. Humans are human; as a species we're pretty sexually motivated and we're very good, on a case by case basis, at solving our cognitive dissonances by twisting everything into Special Logic.

But it's still going to have that cloak of the Illicit and the Wicked and the Perverse that means that usually at best it's a kind of naughty secret (my husband does this THING with his HAND that's AMAZING but fuck knows I wouldn't talk to ANYONE about it because I'd die of shame, etc etc, in either direction . . . except sometimes you talk about it to your very CLOSE friend or worldly friend, the on you know won't judge you . . . ) and moves down the various levels of the weird ways humans are about "shameful" pleasures from there. And there is not going to be ANYONE, anywhere, providing any actual social push in the other direction; everything that people are going to be willing to say out loud and admit is going to be Only Potentially Progenitive Sex Involving One Penis going into One Vagina Whose Owners Are Lawfully Wed Is Acceptable. There is NO other licit narrative that will be actually owned or admitted to by the powers of culture.

The official Morals were all sex outside of marriage was Very Very Bad, but people were often pretty pragmatic about it because life held relatively few pleasures anyway, and also well you could always MEAN to be getting married and so you weren't really Bad and Wrong in your HEART, right, so that's fine, it was all fine. (Right up until it WASN'T and your whole life collapsed.)

But the taboo about "gross" kinds of sex is gonna be a bit deeper, because there's NO version of reality in which you were supposed to have (or want) that kind of sex.
Edited 2022-12-10 22:47 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-11 03:38 am (UTC)(link)
basically, if you WANT to have some influences in their life be REALLY STRICT about Proper Behaviour, that's definitely something you CAN attribute to a guardian, and even subject probably the young lady of the two of them to Lectures about Chaste and Virtuous Behaviour. On the other hand if you'd like things to be a bit more relaxed, you can also do that;

Okay, this is super useful to me too, thank you! Because I had, in the course of my reading, encountered all these different mindsets in different places, and figured they coexisted (just like different mindsets have coexisted in all periods), but it's helpful to have it spelled out explicitly by someone who knows what they're talking about, so I can stop second-guessing whether I'm piecing the evidence together correctly.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2022-12-11 04:21 am (UTC)(link)
I think the biggest difference between the early-moderns (and earlier) vs the later periods is that while behaviour and what's acceptable to DO isn't necessarily that much more (or less) permissive than later and more familiar periods, the whole topic was much less Forbidden. The early-moderns and earlier are, throughout society, much less SQUEAMISH about sex and sexuality, and much less prone to finding the whole topic too Unseemly to talk about.

Cf, well, things like Mercrutio's lengthy discourse about Rosalind's meddlars: this was NOT an Allusive and Complex reference to the vulva, this was like making really really obvious jokes about large roosters and lovely cats, and while yeah, Mercrutio's being coarse as hell (and would have been viably in for being punched in the face if Romeo had wanted to take offense), this isn't considered Too Lewd to be in a play that was performed widely and incredibly popular, and performed for the court and all the worthies of the land.

One will have the occasional story like the idea that Anne of Cleves was too ignorant of sexuality to know that the king had to do more than kiss her and then sleep beside her to end up with her pregnant, but the honestly relevant part of that story is the extent to which literally everyone around her was " . . . . . . " about her being that ignorant - whether true or not (and it might have been), what's fairly obvious is that her level of ignorance would have been extraordinary and strange.

The prudery around TALKING about the subject would come later, mostly.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-11 06:36 am (UTC)(link)
The prudery around TALKING about the subject would come later, mostly.

It certainly hadn't come by the 18th century. It's hilarious and kind of a trip to read prefaces written by 19th and early 20th century editors of 18th century texts: they either defend their decision to bowdlerize their text as sheer decency demands, or they defend both their decision not to bowdlerize as well as their subjects' respectability. "She was totally a lady! Ladies could talk about these things in those days without being seen as coarse! It was just a less refined age." You can see these editors reaching for their smelling salts.

And not just sex, but bodies in general (menstruation, sweating, bowel movements), as well as men being over-the-top emotional. "He was extremely masculine!" protests the poor editor. "It was just the fashion to read sad poetry and cry all the time." Things that we as a society still haven't gotten to the point of being to do and talk about as openly as they did all the way up to the 18th century, but we've at least come far enough that editors don't feel the need to be so dramatic in their efforts to convince their readers that this is not a reason not to read whatever it was they just edited.

Of course, the "It was the times!" protest continues to apply to "He was extremely het! Heterosexual men just professed undying devotion to each other in those days" to this day. The problem, of course, is that it's true: 18th century correspondents did write elaborate phrases of devotion to each other with no more genuine emotion than us writing "Dear Hiring Manager" today (the anonymous hiring manager not being especially dear to you), but also many of them were extremely gay and those were totally love letters. And there was also a whole lot more socially acceptable middle ground allowing things like "romantic friendship" to develop and be expressed comfortably.

All of which makes it easy to whitewash all passionate declarations of love as totally platonic if you're so inclined, and difficult to sort out who actually was attracted to whom even if you're looking for it.
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-12-13 06:22 am (UTC)(link)
unless it's Lehndorff we're talking about
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-12-13 06:28 am (UTC)(link)
I was thinking of Lehndorff! He falls under "easy for us 21st century-ers to figure out he was actually bisexual" but also "easy for early 20th century editors to grab their smelling salts and proclaim that it was just those 18th century over-the-top platonic love declarations, doncha know."

For those who don't know, Lehndorff was SO openly bi in his diaries that one of his descendants went through the texts with an intent to publish them, tried changing the "he"s and "him"s of his love declarations to "she"s and "her"s, then gave it up as a lost cause. The diaries were not published until later, with "he" and "him" left in, along with obligatory "everyone was this emo then!" disclaimers. To quote from Selenas's write-up:

I have to tell you, the introduction is worth reading because that, too, is a document of its times. The Editor (writing in the year 1907) tries to be gentle and prepare his readers for all that rococo shamelessness, saying he’d have cut it but for historical considerations, for lo, it seems that (Fritz-derived) image historians had of the Prussian court only turning sensual and adulterous once FW2 the playboy got on the throne? Is wrong! The Fritzian court was not a bastion of chaste stoic Prussian masculinity after all. On the other hand, we’re told to keep in mind everyone is emo in those days, so Lehndorff bursting into tears when his beloved Heinrich isn’t around for a few days is UTTERLY NORMAL. Oh, and about 800 letters from Heinrich to Lehndorff have never been transcribed. (As of the publication of these journals.) „Doubtlessly,“ the editor tells us, „the King himself bears some of the blame, due to the nature of his married life. We have suppressed some names and cut the worst passages, though.“
cahn: (Default)

[personal profile] cahn 2022-12-11 05:19 am (UTC)(link)
Ha! Yes, Laura Ingalls Wilder was one of the things I was thinking of, though I didn't know that part! But I remember Almanzo did get to kiss her, as far as I could tell once very briefly right after they got engaged, and as a kid reading it I was all "sounds legit!" and as an adult, I thought, ...really?

There is NO other licit narrative that will be actually owned or admitted to by the powers of culture.

*nods* Yeah -- I think the way that fanfic and fandom, bless them, make all kinds of sexual acts perfectly reasonable and admissible subjects to talk about was, at least for me, extremely useful.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 02:31 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, lol, another one I remembered.

Diana Gabaldon has a prostitute teaching the new girl the tricks of the trade in Voyager.

"Newest lass takes the one no one wants," she informed me.

"Stick your finger up his bum," Dorcas advised me. "That brings 'em off faster than anything."


Younger me: Well, yes, it sounds very unpleasant to have a finger up your butt, and I'm sure it'll get him off of you quickly, but..won't he complain to the madam? I'm sympathetic to your desire not to have sex with him, but aren't you getting paid to not make it unpleasant for him?

Older me: OH. Wow, who knew men had prostates and often find that arousing? Definitely not me at 15! And I certainly didn't know "bring someone off" was slang for making them orgasm.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 10:30 pm (UTC)(link)
15-yo me never saw why the sex was necessary!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-20 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
A very similar phenomenon around the same age led to me only understanding a piece of oral family history years later.

What I was told: "Your father's parents had their first child in their twenties. Then your grandmother was told by doctors she couldn't have any more kids. Then, in her forties, she suddenly popped out three (?) more, including your father. The moral of the story is that doctors don't know everything."

What younger me thought: "I get that you might hope the doctor was wrong, but twenty years is a *long time* to keep trying with no signs of success!"

What older me eventually figured out: Non-procreative sex is a thing. :P
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2022-06-18 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Rachel, you can now join [personal profile] cahn in the list of people who started a post on one topic and had it hijacked by me and another person talking about history. Frederick the Great salon began life as an opera post! ;)
ethelmay: (Default)

[personal profile] ethelmay 2022-06-19 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
I know this is a humongo thread, but I just thought of the best example. When we were reading Sons and Lovers in college, there was a bit that went like this: '"I know it's a lot to ask," he said; "but there's not much risk for you really—not in the Gretchen way." ' I assumed that "in the Gretchen way" meant some sort of workaround that wouldn't get her pregnant, and when he says later on, "You are always clenched against me," I assumed that meant they were having anal sex. But I just couldn't ask the professor about it in order to make sure, though it seemed odd to me that a ladylike character would know some weird slang for anal sex. Of course it turned out that "in the Gretchen way" was modifying "risk," and meant that what happened to the character Gretchen in Goethe's Faust would not happen to her (according to Paul, anyway, I forget if Miriam really does avoid pregnancy).
sheron: RAF bi-plane doodle (Johns) (Default)

[personal profile] sheron 2022-06-20 03:30 pm (UTC)(link)
It is only after being told this as an adult that I understood that Narnia books (that I've read a million times as a child) have something to do with Christianity and apparently Aslan is a metaphor. I haven't re-read the books since then, so I can't say how much the realization would change for me, but that was quite a big "oh really" moment.
minoanmiss: Minoan Bast and a grey kitty (Minoan Bast)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2022-06-20 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a glorious and educational discussion! I wish I had more examples to add beyond the usual "now I know what that bit of British vocabulary means" and "oh he was *naked*" realizations.

Page 1 of 2