rachelmanija | (no subject)

Entry tags:

gender and feminism

(no subject)

cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.

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An accusation which you're doing your best to prove by not listening and not, apparently, caring very much.

And that's not even touching what women often do to themselves after the rape-- blaming themselves for what happened/not being aggressive enough, deciding that what happened 'wasn't really raped.' I'll never forget my floormate in my freshman year of college insisting "I wasn't raped," less than a month after she confessed to us (AND THE SON OF A BITCH NEVER DENIED IT): "I woke up with him on top of me."

Oh, wow, wrong icon. Edited.

Edited 2009-06-10 14:34 (UTC)

Wow, truly thank you for stating this point, exactly like this. I've often felt it but have not had the rational calm words to say it.

When a discussion like this is derailed with the the idea that we have to be so PC so not to offend men, it is indeed a passive aggressive way of agreeing with "non-rapist". Don't side track the point.

And we are all responsible for the way society views woman and rape, even if your personal circle are saints. We all on some level contribute to the attitude of our culture. When I stood at an 'intellecutal' party on frat row in Berkeley, Ca. and we saw groups of scantily clad girls walking down the street. When one guy made an off handed remark about how many of them would be raped tonight. My silence said a lot. As much as I'm not proud of it, as much as I regret it now, I know that was part of the problem.

But also thanks to all those who contributed to the comments, odd way by reading all of you I am comforted, as if the situation is not quite as hopeless as I had imagined it.

Many years away from freshman orientation, I appreciate more and more how novel and progressive it was. At my school, it was structured to address the lack of certain kinds of information that comes with different types of privilege, and to give information about the health and emotional dangers of college. We not only heard stories from survivors of sexual violence, went over the nuances of what consent is, but had the injunction (which is apparently /the/ college sexual ethics slogan) to "stop, ask, and clarify" ingrained into all of us. I still ran across some very backward thinking in my time there, but knowing that every man around had at least been exposed to this kind of thinking was marvelous luxury for four years.

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

I have a question for you. I'm sincerely asking you to think about what I'm saying in this comment and not to take it as an attack.

You say that you do not hang around men who would ever rape someone or stand by and watch them be raped.

Consider the possibility for a moment that your judgment is not, somehow, vastly superior to that of all the women who have been raped by those close to them.

How do you think a woman of your social circle would feel if she were raped by one of your friends who are supposedly above reproach? Do you think, after reading your words here, that she could feel comfortable telling you about it? Do you think that she would expect you to believe her?

Because I wouldn't.

Consider the possibility that you're wrong about one (just one, it only takes one if you're alone with him, if you trust him) of the guys you hang out with. Imagine that one of your female friends is also wrong about him. She trusts him as much as you do. Her judgment is as good as yours. Now, imagine that you're both wrong.

What are the possible consequences to you if you find out that this man you both trusted raped her? Guilt, maybe. Mistrusting yourself. Doubting the rest of your friends, perhaps. Not knowing what to say to her. Wondering how many of the other women you know have been raped.

What are the consequences to her? Being raped. And then being disbelieved by her circle of oh-so-enlightened friends, because none of the guys you hang out with could do that. Questioning her judgment, blaming herself, being blamed by others for choosing the wrong man to trust. If she reports it, invasive medical exams, questions, slut-shaming before a jury as well as her friends and family (or, if she chooses not to allow those close to her to see and hear such intimate, horrible things, she'll have to face it alone). If she doesn't report it, always wondering if she's responsible for someone else being raped by the same man, if it means she's weak, if all her other friends, who still trust this man, will end up in the same situation.

Do you really think that if you faced those consequences, you could honestly say that none of the men you know could or would ever rape, or even support the ideas listed in the original post that lead to rape?

Do you really think that a few good friends can protect a woman from being raped in her own home, in her office, her car, her school, the park where she jogs, her best friend's 21st birthday party, by her babysitter, by her father?

Do you really think that the 2/3 of women who have been raped by people they knew just didn't have your good judgment?

Do you really think that we can make ourselves safe by hanging with a better crowd?

Have you never been wrong about a friend before?

Edited 2009-06-12 21:38 (UTC)

I'm fascinated - exactly which man is it you think I should have avoided? My father, when I was a child? The minister at my church when I was 11? The men who've exposed themselves to me in public places? The man who groped me on a fully booked, transatlantic flight, thinking - as he began - that I was asleep?

I followed a link from

sihaya09 to get here, mostly intending to read and keep my mouth shut. First and foremost, I agree that every one of those statements starting with a dash are indeed bullshit.

Now, speaking as someone who has been falsely accused of attempted rape, I can tell you that it is a relatively terrifying experience. Mind, she didn't make any accusations on the legal level, but instead told a number of mutual friends and acquaintances. Those that believed her made my life horrible for a while (for the first week I didn't actually know what she was telling people - just that it was something bad and that she wouldn't talk to me - so I couldn't even really deny it with any conviction), and once I found out what she was telling people I was very worried about what would happen if she did go to the police (not that I really thought I'd have been found guilty - though my teenage self did worry somewhat about what the result of a he-said-she-said situation would be - but because of the nightmare the situation would be either way). She didn't, and over the next few months I learned that she was pretty much constantly lying, often badly (there were blatant inconsistencies that became apparent once people actually talked to each other in more detail about what she said happened, and where). She got caught out on some other major lies (mostly involving equally serious claims) in the process, and more people started believing me. In all, it was a terrible few months, and I still have no idea why she made those accusations (or why she told any of the other lies, for that matter).

That said, I'm still generally inclined to instantly believe any woman who tells me she's been assaulted, sexually or otherwise (unless and until, of course, I see good evidence that contradicts her - after dealing with the above I do keep my eyes open for such evidence more that I probably would have otherwise). False accusations happen, but not nearly enough to justify starting to assume any accusations are false from the get go.

Er. When I say it was "relatively terrifying," I'm speaking relative to my life normally. I haven't experienced anything close to rape, but I'm sure relative to that, what I went through was a walk in the park.

Seriously.

This.

Good comment. Maybe he'll listen to you.

90% doesn't sound at all out of line to me. I've found all of those ideas in the heads of generally very decent guys...and in my own, in the lifetime of being male-bodied before I realized I needed something else. Heck, I'm still flushing out a lot of that crap. It's the "well, not really, and yet, kinda, a bit" sorts of reservations that keep a lot of men quiet and complicit even when they wouldn't initiate a rape or sexual assault themselves.

Indeed.

I have stopped conversations with people about the "I can't believe it's actually one in four women who's been raped" just by speaking up and admitting I was raped.

It is not easy. For a long time I denied it was rape because after it happened I went to a trusted person (the wife of the pastor of the church I was attending at the time) and told her, crying the whole time. She said it couldn't have been rape, because the person that had done it was my then-husband. That, on top of what he'd done to me, caused a lot of pain that I had trouble dealing with for years.

To the people saying that I could've protected myself by not hanging out with "bad men," I ask you this: I should not have slept next to my own husband? I should somehow have recognized that my own husband was going to attack me, turn on me, betray my trust and hurt me?

AS IF.

YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Stop blaming me for what happened to me!

Some of the comments in this post have left me feeling physically ill.

When will people stop blaming us for what happened to us?

I think I am going to go curl up next to my husband-- not the one that raped me-- and try to stop shaking.

but I don't have a special obligation to teach any other men proper behavior.

If you don't, who will?

I have a friend who married her rapist after he raped her. She was angry at him at first, and I encouraged her to go to a counselor.

Unfortunately, the counselor apparently was an idiot, and told her that because she had gone so far with him, that when he penetrated her vaginally without asking consent (despite her saying she never wanted to have intercourse before marriage about a billion times) ... it was a misunderstanding, not rape.

And she wonders why, even though she presents a milk-and-honey existence with him on her public LJ (which is the only way I have any contact with her anymore), I don't trust that bastard as far as I could throw him.

My rapist was someone who, in my social circle was considered the nicest guy alive. I'd known him for five years. He had two really heinous breakups- and we all just thought he had the most horrid luck with women. "What the hell was wrong with these psychos?! Why would they say that about him?!"
After all, how could this sweet, soft spoken, passive artist who often protested at anti-war rallies and volunteered at the animal shelter ever do the things the two women said he'd done?
In our social circle, you didn't even eat meat, because it was harming someone, let alone force someone into sex- so, of course these women were just being spiteful.

I'm still working through the feelings for what happened to me, but also, trying to work through the fact that when the first one told people what he'd done- I was one of the loudest saying that he "wasn't like that".
I'm still working through how, maybe if I hadn't been, I could have prevented what happened to the second, maybe even prevented what happened to me- which, I know it isn't my fault, but I learned a great deal about that attitude you just posted.
It's not right.

So, you honestly expect that one of your pals is just going to sit down with you and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm rather fond of raping women"? Or do you think perhaps there's a scent marker, a behavior pattern that's a precurser to rape? Because I feel pretty sure if you've got something, the world needs to hear it.
Your assumption is not only likely wrong, but the impact your assumption could have on the women in your social circle is frightening.

Yeah, I wouldn't either. Ewwww.

I was in a relationship for 2 years with a man that left me literally feeling like a whore. He often was only nice to me when he wanted sex, so that, in the end, his being nice was a trigger for me, a constant battle within my body and mind. Until the end, I often gave in just to avoid the massive fight (or prolonged pouting, with sayings like "But honey, I have *needs*") that was sure to follow if I didn't satisfy him sexually.

I didn't realize until after I left what a profound and lasting impact his behaviour would have on me. I left that relationship resenting him, and men, in general. Unable to trust and filled with a kind of rage that defies description. I didn't (and don't) know if it could be classified as rape, but it certainly was, at the very least, psychological torture.

Not only that, but after I left, I had to deal with 2 years of stalking, restraining orders, calls to the police and time in court whenever he (inevitably) would ignore the restraining order. My ordeal with the police and courts being so lackadaisical about enforcing the restraining order eventually made me leave the state I was living in just to get away from him.

Sadly, I know my story is not uncommon. This occurred over 5 years ago. Through much counselling, I am finally getting over the quiet rage that simmered in me. No...I don't know if I will ever be "over" it, but it does not rule my life anymore. I still don't date, still don't trust men, and still hold a majority of them in suspicion and contempt. A lot of that attittude comes from the complete lack of help I recieved in the police stations and court systems, where a majority of the people I had to turn to for help and protection were men, and I think they viewed me as, in some small way, having asked for it by *being* and *staying* in an abusive relationship.

Yes, I did allow that behaviour to go on for far too long. But I never *asked* for it, nor did I deserve it.

This should be required reading for boys 5th grade and up. Or am I, at 47, being naive, and we should start with 4th graders?

What horrifies me is that which I always thought was as obvious as breathing air, seems to be so far beyond most of the men described here. I'm surprised the old "she's shouting/screaming/scratching 'NO' on my back with her nails, but really all women, on some level, want to be taken. " rotten chestnut wasn't amongst these points.

Like I said, should be required reading.

Oh, and regarding "women can be rapists or child molesters." You're right. The .001% should be brought up to assuage the feelings of the 99.99% who feel it's unfair to specify them.

Poor guys. All those bruised feelings.

Oh, cool. Thank you for that link!

I think there's something else behind this one: Some accusations of rape that are truthful involve rapes that the perpetrators, through cluelessness and acculturation, didn't realize were rapes. The fear here is, I think, partly from men who've heard of cases where the man thought it wasn't rape, and worry that this could happen to them.

Now, the real solution is for these mean to learn that "you don't think is rape" is not the standard they should be using. Instead, they ought to positively determine that their partner *wants* to do whatever it is they're about to do, and they ought to consider whether she will feel positively about it later on, and ask questions if they're not sure. In the course of thinking about these things, they'll also lose their fear of false accidentally doing something they think is fine and the woman later calls rape.

Statistics about how unusual true false accusations are, and how hard it is for women to accuse, would not, I think, diffuse this myth for the men who have it, because it's probably not just the actually-false accusations that they fear (whether they realize it or not).

This, and so much more, and it's even worse in some countries. I read an article for a genders class about some of the discrimination that rape victims in South Africa were experiencing from the police, medical facilities, and even just their own neighbors that was truly appalling. I believe the author's name was 'Muholi'; if you can get your hands on it it's a fascinating, enraging, depressing article about race, sexism, and rape.

I have several friends who were molested and/or raped as children by father figures and authority figures. Tell me, how is it they were supposed to surround themselves with better men? You're so naive, I feel sorry for the women who know you.

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Re: 90%?

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Stop, Ask, and Clarify

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ETA: Linked here while following the discussion in cereta's journal

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Re: ETA: Linked here while following the discussion in cereta's journal

Re: "Yet" and "But"

Re: 90%?

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Re: how to respond to one of those myths (1)

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Re: 90%?