(no subject)

[rachelmanija]

cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.

Comments

Good points. Here's my 2 cents, if ya want 'em!

[paper-legends.livejournal.com]

I was assaulted by my boyfriend two+ years ago, and I did not realize how far-reaching the psychological effects would be, really. After the whole freak out, Plan B, tons of AIDS tests, etc., craziness was over, I started noticing unpredictable side effects, like memory black outs, fear of being held down with my arms above my head, and the guilt I felt for letting it happen. I say I was "assaulted" b/c while he didn't ask and he was forceful, hurtful, and refused to use protection, I didn't say no, didn't fight back, and so while I think it was a gray area, we were having loving protected sex regularly and therefore I can't classify this sudden change in protocol as "rape."

While it was happening, at first I was shocked, then I wondered why I deserved such sudden ager and he didn't love me like he said, then I didn't want to be a damn statistic so I said nothing and didn't protect myself but instead hoped he'd stop and apologize. Those two minutes resulted in a great deal of turmoil for months and months. Now that I'm taking ninjutsu, I've learned to give myself permission to say no and to even protest physically. I'm learning to make it a habit to protect myself, even.

But the fucked up thought processes at the time probably did not clue my boyfriend in to the fact that what he was doing wasn't just animalistic or inconsiderate or selfish--it was unwanted and depressing and damaging.

So, I think it's also important for all of us to not just teach men the facts, but to teach women that they have a responsibility to make how they feel about what's happening really, really, really clear, and to stress that saying no or even having to fight someone off doesn't make them a bitch, a tease, a bully, a liar, ungenerous, unfeminine, stuck up, unsexy, over-reacting, frigid, a dramaqueen, or nuts. It just makes them honest.

Re: Good points. Here's my 2 cents, if ya want 'em!

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Hey, thank you for sharing. I've been thinking about your comment since you shared it.

I think it's important to empower girls to recognize what's happening to them and to feel able to say no. I think it's great that you're changing your life in so many positive ways. But I worry that saying that "women have a responsibility to make how they feel about what's happening really, really, really clear" puts too much onus on women, and too much blame on you for those "two minutes" of silence. Because you saw a big difference between this occurance and the previous loving, consensual sex you'd had, and it's not crazy or extreme to expect your boyfriend to have seen one, too.

Re: Good points. Here's my 2 cents, if ya want 'em!

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Hi there!

I was going to say basically what coffeeandink said, but she got there first. Be gentle on yourself, okay?

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

Carrying on.

how to respond to one of those myths (1)

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

Fact: There are no more false accusations of rape than of any other crime.

This is statistically shown to be the case, at least in the United States. Probably you can find it cited on rainn.org along with a lot of other very useful statistics about sexual violence.

The reasoning behind men's stupid fear of being accused of rape (or of women "abusing" laws about sexual violence should they be strengthened) seems to involve women getting revenge on or money from men they're mad at. (I think this in itself reveals an unconscious understanding that women have so little power in our society that they may have to resort to underhanded tactics to get what they want.)

Here is what a woman has to go through in North Carolina, where I'm a volunteer rape crisis counselor, in order to accuse a man of rape:

1. She goes to the hospital for evidence collection. This involves HOURS of exhausting and invasive physical examination. They take pictures inside and out and check for hair, skin, semen and other samples. Her clothes are usually also placed into the evidence bag--it may be months or never before she can recover them (if she wants to). If she's at a hospital like mine, she's lucky because there's an examination room reserved just for rape victims and she will be attended by specially trained Sexual Assault Nurse Examiners. This program is extraordinary and underfunded--more likely she will have to wait in the emergency room and be attended, questioned and physically probed by people who are uneducated about sexual violence, who possibly believe any number of the ideas in your post above and let it show in their treatment of the patient.

2. If she has no insurance, she may have to pay for this examination, and it is EXPENSIVE. In North Carolina there's a Victim Compensation Fund which she can apply for, contingent upon her making a police report (and, possibly, on there being a conviction--I'm not sure about that part). This might cover the examination plus medical care of any wounds she received during the assault. It probably won't cover therapy. And it definitely won't cover HIV prophylaxis, a treatment someone might want to choose if they believe they may have been exposed to the virus, and which is incredibly unbelievably expensive (not to mention administered over several weeks with horrible side effects).

3. She will certainly have to talk to the police. During my rape crisis center training I witness a mock interview between a police officer and a volunteer pretending to be a rape survivor. The police officer has worked with our center before, is part of a police force which is in an extraordinary collaboration with our center and other community organizations to respond more effectively to sexual violence, and was probably on his best behavior because he was being carefully watched by twenty feminists. His questions were many (the interview lasted over half an hour), detailed, and left us feeling pretty uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure that many police officers believe at least a handful of the myths above and carry those beliefs with them in their interviews of crime victims.

Re: how to respond to one of those myths (1)

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this.

I had a friend (no it was not me) who went with two other girlfriends as protection to an end-of-the-year senior party (they were all freshmen). Unfortunately they all got out-of-control drunk (I'm sure it had nothing to do with horny older guys who called such girls 'freshmeat' supplying them with free booze). The party had started as a game of Truth or Dare in a large room full of people, and involved all the freshmen girls being dared to take off their shirts (they did, but kept their bras on). My friend got literally dragged (too drunk to resist) off into another room and gang-raped by at least three, possibly four, guys. The party went on, one person accidentally walked in on the rape, and nobody stopped what was happening. My friend came to in the morning naked, bruised and sore, her clothes and shoes missing, and wrapped herself in a blanket and ran across campus to her own dorm so she could call her mother.

The moral of the story? The resident adult's wife was a born-again Christian who tried to convince her not to take a morning-after pill if she went to the hospital. No rape kit was done because my friend had "waited" until the day after it happened and taken a shower. The policemen who interviewed her at the hospital told her she could press charges, if she wanted (she knew two of her rapists) but due to the circumstances the D.A. would never get a conviction. So she didn't. "The one thing in your favour," one of the cops told her, "was that you were a virgin."

Re: how to respond to one of those myths (1)

[cos]

I think there's something else behind this one: Some accusations of rape that are truthful involve rapes that the perpetrators, through cluelessness and acculturation, didn't realize were rapes. The fear here is, I think, partly from men who've heard of cases where the man thought it wasn't rape, and worry that this could happen to them.

Now, the real solution is for these mean to learn that "you don't think is rape" is not the standard they should be using. Instead, they ought to positively determine that their partner *wants* to do whatever it is they're about to do, and they ought to consider whether she will feel positively about it later on, and ask questions if they're not sure. In the course of thinking about these things, they'll also lose their fear of false accidentally doing something they think is fine and the woman later calls rape.

Statistics about how unusual true false accusations are, and how hard it is for women to accuse, would not, I think, diffuse this myth for the men who have it, because it's probably not just the actually-false accusations that they fear (whether they realize it or not).

Re: how to respond to one of those myths (1)

[colorise.livejournal.com]

This, and so much more, and it's even worse in some countries. I read an article for a genders class about some of the discrimination that rape victims in South Africa were experiencing from the police, medical facilities, and even just their own neighbors that was truly appalling. I believe the author's name was 'Muholi'; if you can get your hands on it it's a fascinating, enraging, depressing article about race, sexism, and rape.

how to respond (2)

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

4. Rape is a crime, so when it's reported, it becomes a court case at the initiative of the District Attorney. The survivor loses control of the matter after she reports it to the police. She will be re-questioned about the assault by at least one person at the DA's office. If the DA decides to offer a plea bargain (offer the accused a chance to plead guilty to a lesser charge, with a correspondingly lesser punishment, in order to avoid taking the case to trial), she can't do anything about that. If the case goes to trial, she'll have to testify before a court. The case may make the news; confidentiality may be broken so that everyone in town knows about it.

5. If she can afford to do so, and can actually stand the thought of more time in court, she can sue him in civil court. This is the only way I know of that someone could get money from somebody by accusing him of rape--but I've never actually heard of anyone doing this, and it's hard to imagine a scenario in which this would be worth it for the survivor (although I would absolutely support any survivor who chose to go forward with it). If she couldn't pay a lawyer to do it, she would probably turn to Legal Aid, who, though incredibly wonderful, are horribly underfunded and understaffed and might not even have the ability to take the case on. In either case it would involve more filling out of forms, more interviews, an incredible drain of energy.

6. Then she has to live with it. If she is telling the truth about her assault--and I ALWAYS, ALWAYS believe that she is--she has to live with the memory of what happened, of the loss of control over her body, with mental and emotional and possibly physical damage. She may have to live with an STD. She may have to decide what to do about a pregnancy. She may need to relearn how to love herself, her body, her life. She may be more vulnerable to assault in the future. She may have nightmares, trouble sleeping, changed eating patterns, panic attacks, an inability to trust people who remind her of her assailant, fear in situations that remind her of her assault. She may have no one in her life who can empathize with how she's feeling. These things can negatively impact her job, her relationship with friends/partner/family, her ability to take care of her kids, her ability to take care of herself.

And--even if the assault DIDN'T happen--she has to live in our society. Which believes all of those things you listed in your post. Where there are way too many people who think that if someone were raped, there must have been something wrong with her. That she was asking for it. Or that now that she's been raped, there is something wrong with her--she might be too hard to talk to, or too fragile, or too angry. Someone too difficult to be friends with; someone who's not "normal." And then there might be the friends and family of the accused--they're not happy, and what if they're her friends and family or in-laws too? What if they have power over her life? And then of course there's the accused, who has probably had very little happen to him and is free as a bird (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates), but if he thinks he's been punished, he may think it's time to punish back. Not all women have the ability to keep themselves safe from an angry man who really wants revenge.

90%?

[blistermyeye.livejournal.com]

You need to associate with a different kind of man!

I've never believed any of that, and I've never heard any man I know assert any of that. As for teaching others, sorry, I don't feel that responsibility. I taught my son well, I hope, but I don't have a special obligation to teach any other men proper behavior.

Re: 90%?

[nestra.livejournal.com]

This comment comes across as very dismissive to women -- dismissive to the fears, threats, and mental calculations that we live with every day.

Maybe it was your intent to be dismissive. If so, mission accomplished.

Re: 90%?

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Then I guess it's lucky for you you don't have daughters, a mother, a wife, sisters, or any other woman you care about, who can be affected by other men.

[three-fates1987.livejournal.com]

You know what truly terrifies me? It's not just 90% of men. I'm a junior in college and have been shocked to learn how many girls agree with these:

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

I was absolutely awestruck when my own best friend told me that she really regretted going over to a guy's house because as soon as she walked through the door she knew she really didn't want to go any further but she stayed because at that point she didn't thinks she had a right to say no and leave.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

And that's not even touching what women often do to themselves after the rape-- blaming themselves for what happened/not being aggressive enough, deciding that what happened 'wasn't really raped.' I'll never forget my floormate in my freshman year of college insisting "I wasn't raped," less than a month after she confessed to us (AND THE SON OF A BITCH NEVER DENIED IT): "I woke up with him on top of me."

Oh, wow, wrong icon. Edited.

Stop, Ask, and Clarify

[distant-beaches.livejournal.com]

Many years away from freshman orientation, I appreciate more and more how novel and progressive it was. At my school, it was structured to address the lack of certain kinds of information that comes with different types of privilege, and to give information about the health and emotional dangers of college. We not only heard stories from survivors of sexual violence, went over the nuances of what consent is, but had the injunction (which is apparently /the/ college sexual ethics slogan) to "stop, ask, and clarify" ingrained into all of us. I still ran across some very backward thinking in my time there, but knowing that every man around had at least been exposed to this kind of thinking was marvelous luxury for four years.

Re: Stop, Ask, and Clarify

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

That's brilliant. And should be required in every sex-ed classroom.

[tevriel.livejournal.com]

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

[spectralbovine.livejournal.com]

Oh, cool. Thank you for that link!

[egosomnio.livejournal.com]

I followed a link from sihaya09 to get here, mostly intending to read and keep my mouth shut. First and foremost, I agree that every one of those statements starting with a dash are indeed bullshit.

Now, speaking as someone who has been falsely accused of attempted rape, I can tell you that it is a relatively terrifying experience. Mind, she didn't make any accusations on the legal level, but instead told a number of mutual friends and acquaintances. Those that believed her made my life horrible for a while (for the first week I didn't actually know what she was telling people - just that it was something bad and that she wouldn't talk to me - so I couldn't even really deny it with any conviction), and once I found out what she was telling people I was very worried about what would happen if she did go to the police (not that I really thought I'd have been found guilty - though my teenage self did worry somewhat about what the result of a he-said-she-said situation would be - but because of the nightmare the situation would be either way). She didn't, and over the next few months I learned that she was pretty much constantly lying, often badly (there were blatant inconsistencies that became apparent once people actually talked to each other in more detail about what she said happened, and where). She got caught out on some other major lies (mostly involving equally serious claims) in the process, and more people started believing me. In all, it was a terrible few months, and I still have no idea why she made those accusations (or why she told any of the other lies, for that matter).

That said, I'm still generally inclined to instantly believe any woman who tells me she's been assaulted, sexually or otherwise (unless and until, of course, I see good evidence that contradicts her - after dealing with the above I do keep my eyes open for such evidence more that I probably would have otherwise). False accusations happen, but not nearly enough to justify starting to assume any accusations are false from the get go.

[egosomnio.livejournal.com]

Er. When I say it was "relatively terrifying," I'm speaking relative to my life normally. I haven't experienced anything close to rape, but I'm sure relative to that, what I went through was a walk in the park.

[miintikwa.livejournal.com]

Some of the comments in this post have left me feeling physically ill.

When will people stop blaming us for what happened to us?

I think I am going to go curl up next to my husband-- not the one that raped me-- and try to stop shaking.

[dandieelyon.livejournal.com]

I was in a relationship for 2 years with a man that left me literally feeling like a whore. He often was only nice to me when he wanted sex, so that, in the end, his being nice was a trigger for me, a constant battle within my body and mind. Until the end, I often gave in just to avoid the massive fight (or prolonged pouting, with sayings like "But honey, I have *needs*") that was sure to follow if I didn't satisfy him sexually.

I didn't realize until after I left what a profound and lasting impact his behaviour would have on me. I left that relationship resenting him, and men, in general. Unable to trust and filled with a kind of rage that defies description. I didn't (and don't) know if it could be classified as rape, but it certainly was, at the very least, psychological torture.

Not only that, but after I left, I had to deal with 2 years of stalking, restraining orders, calls to the police and time in court whenever he (inevitably) would ignore the restraining order. My ordeal with the police and courts being so lackadaisical about enforcing the restraining order eventually made me leave the state I was living in just to get away from him.

Sadly, I know my story is not uncommon. This occurred over 5 years ago. Through much counselling, I am finally getting over the quiet rage that simmered in me. No...I don't know if I will ever be "over" it, but it does not rule my life anymore. I still don't date, still don't trust men, and still hold a majority of them in suspicion and contempt. A lot of that attittude comes from the complete lack of help I recieved in the police stations and court systems, where a majority of the people I had to turn to for help and protection were men, and I think they viewed me as, in some small way, having asked for it by *being* and *staying* in an abusive relationship.

Yes, I did allow that behaviour to go on for far too long. But I never *asked* for it, nor did I deserve it.

[the-ellcrys.livejournal.com]

I was in a similar relationship, and have some of the issues with rage and trust. I've had quite a bit of success with some non-standard types of counselling, and would be happy to share what I've used if you're interested.

[theryk.livejournal.com]

This should be required reading for boys 5th grade and up. Or am I, at 47, being naive, and we should start with 4th graders?

What horrifies me is that which I always thought was as obvious as breathing air, seems to be so far beyond most of the men described here. I'm surprised the old "she's shouting/screaming/scratching 'NO' on my back with her nails, but really all women, on some level, want to be taken. " rotten chestnut wasn't amongst these points.

Like I said, should be required reading.

Oh, and regarding "women can be rapists or child molesters." You're right. The .001% should be brought up to assuage the feelings of the 99.99% who feel it's unfair to specify them.

Poor guys. All those bruised feelings.

[archangelbeth]

First graders. Kindergarten. Pre-school. Both genders. Start with "stop means stop," as one teacher rules (over on cereta's post). Start with boundaries of "ask before hugging" ("if someone had a sunburn or an owchie, would you want to accidentally hug and make it hurt?"). Pinpoint the bullying tactics (my kid's nemesis started by hissing at her, in first grade...) and land on them.

Go on to "no means no" as they get older. Teach physical boundaries, rules for appropriate and inappropriate touching. Teach that different people have different levels of touch-preference, and they should ask first.

Start early. So early that it gets in first, that respect for people's boundaries is ingrained.

When they're teenagers, point out that "romance" includes passionate eye-contact and a gentle, "How far do you want to go?" more than assumptions. Point out that "consent" means an enthusiastic "Yes!" and not a mere absence of a "no."

[thecolourclear.livejournal.com]

SOmeone, in those 2500 comments, said that sex should be 'opt-in, not opt-out' and I cannot tell you the number of men, including men I've been involved with, who think that because a woman doesn't say 'no', some form of consent is there. This, I think, is the biggest thing that needs changing, and it goes along with your supposing we teach men that it IS possibly, acceptable, and sexy to ASK. And make sure that the sex is opt-in, and not opt-out.

[blushing-grace.livejournal.com]

I know lizkayl fixated on that thought, both on the original post and again on a post in her own LJ.

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

(Pointed here by naamah_darling.)

One myth that I haven't noticed in the comments is one that I used to believe (although, had anyone challenged me, I'd have realised how wrong I was).

I'd been taught "No means No", taken it on board, and internally practised saying it, in case it ever became necessary. Except that I used to think that, to say "No", you actually had to say "No". That horrifies me in hindsight - how many other people think the same way?

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

Here via vito_excalibur.

The vast majority of men do not have the same views of rape as you do, either myth or what you see as the reality.

Some men are scared of false accusations. My belief is that this fear is emphatically not valid, and in any case pales compared to the constant fear women endure on a daily basis. This truly is a sideshow issue when we are talking about what men can do to prevent or stop rape.

A common thread I see in your myths here is poor sexual communication skills. Men are not taught to keep checking, "Are you OK with this? Do you want to do this?" For one thing, the answer might be "No" which is not what he wants to hear. The man may think he knows how to read body language, and be horribly wrong. If I had $0.05 for every time I heard something like "She said no but she meant yes" I'd be quite rich.

The belief that a woman will for certain speak up if something is going on that she does not want is also to blame. Assumptive listening has been responsible for more forcible rapes than knives or guns have.

The majority of men and some women have poor communications skills once sex has begun. This leads to the myths you cite (consent to one type of sex == consent to other forms; men afraid of 'accidental' rape; asking does not prevent rape.) I notice that you didn't mention alcohol. My experience is that alcohol intake resulting in poor judgment is a factor in many otherwise preventable situations.

Men are not taught how to gracefully handle a "No" answer. Everywhere else in life, men are expected to "overcome" or "persevere" or "win" . . . tying ego investment, manhood, and pleasure to seeking that "Yes" at whatever cost.

vee_ecks is part of the strong culture of men out there who teach other men, not only their sons and proteges but their peers and superiors, that a man respects women and "No means no." Full stop.

>> If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?"

Partly this is due to abstinence-only sex education -- if one is supposed to wait until marriage, the question of how to gracefully ask and accept any answer given, including "No" does not even come up. In a promiscuous culture whose sex drive is in high gear, full speed ahead, asking is like deliberately hitting the brakes.

I have no Lens of Telepathy to read into the secret hearts of other men: co-workers, friends, acquaintances, relatives. So I cannot assure anyone that any of these are trustworthy. Women can use the best possible judgment about who to trust, and be wrong, and suffer for it. Even then, you don't always get to choose the people in your life.

As a man, it enrages me that some of the women in my life have been the victims of sexual violence. This rage comes with a sense of helplessness and failure among those men who know the score. We are supposed to protect women, not abuse them, and the fact that 1 out of 4 women has been raped is a testament to our failure as men. Not just to control ourselves, not just to set an example for other men, but to protect women from the two-legged predators.

I can tell a rapist that "No means no" until I am blue in the face. He knows that already. There are men who rape, who enjoy doing it, who look for opportunities. Most of them are otherwise ostensibly law-abiding citizens -- they have jobs, drive nice cars, have female friends and lovers, may even be married and have children. Yes, I am talking about so-called "date rapists" and "acquaintance rape" here.

How can I guarantee that such a scoundrel is not among my social network? I can't. I wish I could. I am privately convinced that try to "teach" these pseudo-men not to rape is like trying to "teach" hungry sharks not to bite.

It is grossly unfair that this puts most of the burden of self-defense on the victim. It's not my unfairness, it's an artifact of predator-prey interaction.

The myths are not to blame for rape; they are merely the excuses, like a smokescreen. Men are to blame, to be specific, that subset of men who believe that rape is OK as long as they don't get caught.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I don't know what you think you're doing with this comment, but this is what you're actually doing:

(1) You're defending as reasonable a man who has blamed women for getting raped (vee_ecks);

(2) You're claiming to know more about rachelmanija's own experience than she does;

(3) You're drawing an entirely false distinction between "rape myths" and the people (particularly the men) who believe them;

(4) You're relying on a gender setup in which masculinity is defined as "protecting women," without giving much thought to the other implications of that setup, or what the women involved actually want;

(5) You're calling it "poor communication skills" when a man is afraid "the answer might be "No" which is not what he wants to hear." In short, the man's fear of being turned down and willingness not to ensure true consent is attributed to "communication," rather than his prioritization of his desire above a woman's.

(6) You are demonstrating several of the rape myths rachelmanija cites (men are subject to many false accusations of rape, men can easily accidentally rape women) while denying her perceptions are valid.

(7) You are derailing LIKE WHOA.

Both rachelmanija's post and cereta's post describe what they, and many women, want from men regarding rape. They do not want your protestations of violent support. They want you to reject rape myths you believe and to refute them when they come up in conversation with other men.

If you wind up drafting an equally long response to this comment, please delete it and just reread Rachel and Cereta's posts. It will be more helpful.

[Edited to correct typos]

[denelian.livejournal.com]

i am here via vito_excalibur. couple days ago, i posted a loooooooong post, half of which was a proposal of new rape laws and punishment. and, of course, a couple of the "good guys" i know IMMEDIATELY jumped on me about "false rape accusations" and etc.
so i made another post. and i have linked this one, to help make my point. thank you for writing this - it was *very* clear and concise

[(Anonymous)]

My dad has that problem, believing at least three of the rape myths I saw here. He's never raped anyone, but he will sit there and get all... Sympathetic? Maybe not the best term for it, but he shows some "internal understanding" with the rapist's actions.

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for this post. I'm tired of Camille Paglia and her boys just can't keep it their pants apologia.

I went with a friend to the hospital when she was raped and it was humilitating and invasive and NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO THE MOTHERFUCKER.

And after that, my boyfriend who I thought loved me didn't take no for an answer. Was I drunk? Yes. Had I been smoking dope? Yes. But I'd dated this guy for months and he was awesome and sweet and he loved me. I told him, "No, buttsex is not on the agenda tonight dear heart", passed out, and woke up later to him fucking me up the ass dry. Good times. After the screaming he said sorry and fucked me vaginally. I was so humiliated that I didn't say anything. It's not like that hurt anyway. I thought I had done something wrong. I think I probably wouldn't have had a case had this been a Law and Order episode, but how does somebody who loves you screw up like that? That was more than ten years ago and it still makes me so angry.