I absolutely don't have time for this so don't get your expectations up...

[rachelmanija]

But can someone help me out with some Hawkeye/Black Widow resources?

Movie spoilers.



1. Is there a transcript anywhere of their conversation when he wakes up post-brainwashing?

2. Does anyone recall what is implied about what it felt like to be brainwashed by Loki? The scientist guy talked about it, but I forget the details.

3. What is comic canon for how much Clint knows about Natasha's time in the Red Room? Like, does he know that it happened but not the details? Or does he know details? Or not even know what it was?

Comments

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Psst, spoiler cut!

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Drat, I'm sorry! Added now.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I absolutely don't have time for this so don't get your expectations up...

Too late. :-D

(I have been reading Blackhawk fic, but none of it has really quite scratched the itch yet for me. Problem is, I want somebody else to write the stories I'm looking for; I don't want to write them myself. I've made some requests (http://swan-tower.livejournal.com/533655.html) in a fanfic exchange, but who knows if I'll get what I'm looking for there.)

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Blackhawk is probably the only pairing name that I could actually get behind. I mean in any other way than hilarity. (Spuffy! Snarry! Peeniss!)

I was thinking of something like this: "Or it could revolve around Clint being mind-controlled; Natasha was playing Loki in that conversation, but did the things he said hurt her? And how do the two of them deal with the aftermath?"

But with added comic canon that Natasha was brainwashed herself as a child. Not detailed comic canon, just that idea.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Yeah, most smashnames just make me roll my eyes. But Blackhawk is good, and I'm weirdly entertained by Pepperony. <g> (Though not at all interested in the ship itself. See: not a shipper. Except, apparently, for Hawkeye/Black Widow.)

I've been reading a lot of aftermath fics (which I found after making that request), but like I said, none of them have quite scratched the itch yet; they're falling too much into categories of fanfic I'm not interested in, like smut (lust isn't what interests me in in that relationship) or 100% interiority, without enough of a frame to make it solid for me.

I also have a horrible, horrible desire for an alternate version where Hawkeye takes her prisoner, rather than vice versa, and Loki follows through on his threat. Not to the extent of them both dying, but showing just what it is Natasha fears (not rape; that's too obvious and too easy), and then her having to keep it together through the fear to manipulate and deprogram Clint before he can kill her. But that would be extremely difficult to write well.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I would love to read that!

I don't think her fear is rape either. I think "intimate" isn't in a sexual sense, but emotional. I took as betrayal by a person she actually trusts, in a moment in which she genuinely trusts him. To really twist the knife, I think she'd have to believe that he betrayed her of his own free will, not because he was brainwashed and forced into it. No idea how Loki intended to manage that one.

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

No idea how Loki intended to manage that one.

Loki isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I think that's part of it, but I also think there must be more. Some specific fear she has, that pretty much only Barton (and now Loki) knows about.

But yeah, the "free will betrayal" part is hard to arrange.

[arielstarshadow.livejournal.com]

Unless she did something in her past life - something that Loki somehow discovered - that would make Clint turn against her if he found out.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

But it raises the question of how Loki would have discovered it (other than via Clint). And furthermore, he'd have to unbrainwash Clint first, which undermines the whole plan.

[arielstarshadow.livejournal.com]

My understanding from that particular speech is that it was something that would happen much later - it had nothing to do with the current "plan."

As for how he would have discovered it? Loki's gifts are cunning, wit, and trickery - how did he get the jotuns into Asgard? I don't think it would be very difficult at all for him to sniff out someone's secrets, if he wished to know them. I do not think Clint was his only source for information.

[spectralbovine.livejournal.com]

Does anyone recall what is implied about what it felt like to be brainwashed by Loki? The scientist guy talked about it, but I forget the details.
The bit about feeling like an exposed nerve?

Is there a transcript anywhere of their conversation when he wakes up post-brainwashing?
I came across a link recently for a streaming cam bootleg, if you're interested and it's still up.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

The bit about feeling like an exposed nerve?

Wasn't that Bruce Banner?

Re: streaming: I can't get streaming video to play for me. Alas.

[spectralbovine.livejournal.com]

Wasn't that Bruce Banner?
Yes. I thought you were calling him "scientist guy," but you meant Selvig, I think.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Yes, I meant Selvig's rooftop explanation.

[keelieinblack.livejournal.com]

Re: #2, it's actually pretty short:

SELVIG: The scepter.
NATASHA: Doctor.
SELVIG: Loki's scepter. The energy...the Tesseract can't fight. You can't protect against yourself.
NATASHA: It's not your fault. You didn't know what you were doing.
SELVIG: ...well, actually, I think I did. I built in a safety to cut the power source.

Then follows the explanation about how the scepter should be able to disrupt the tesseract. I'm not sure how helpful it actually is in getting a sense of the brainwashing, although "You can't protect against yourself" might go along pretty well to the indication that part of the scepter's brainwashing was pulling from each person's own personality.

I started to transcribe the post-brainwashing convo, but there are a couple of lines I just cannot get due to mumbliness, so I'm not sure if it would be useful?

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

YES PLEASE.

[keelieinblack.livejournal.com]

Well, I had it typed up but I see neery got there before me. Oh well!

[neery.livejournal.com]

Copy/pasted from here:

[after Natasha has won her fight with Barton, she's strapped him down so that he can shake off Loki's mind control]
Natasha Romanoff: Clint, You're gonna be alright.
Clint Barton: You know that? Is that what you know? I got...I gotta go in though. I gotta flush him out.
Natasha Romanoff: We don't have that long, it's gonna take time.
Clint Barton: I don't understand. Have you ever had someone take your brain and play? Pull you out and send something else in? Do you know what it's like to be unmade?
Natasha Romanoff: You know that I do.
Clint Barton: Why am I back? How did you get him out?
Natasha Romanoff: Cognitive recalibration I hit you really hard in the head.
Clint Barton: Thanks.

It also has the rest of their conversation.

I feel like the fact that she says he knows how she was unmade strongly implies that he knows at least something about her time in the Red Room, but I'm not familiar with the comics canon. I'm also interested in the fact that they talk about how there's going to have to be an extended deprogramming session later, which I don't expect is going to be pleasant.

Also possibly relevant:

Selvig: The Tesseract is showing me so much. It's...it's more than knowledge, it's truth.
Loki: I know. What did it show you, Agent Barton?
Clint Barton: My next target.
Loki: Tell me what you need.
[Barton gets his bow]
Clint Barton: I need a distraction. And an eyeball.

Hope that helped. I've also sent you a PM.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU!

[neery.livejournal.com]

I have no idea why my comment was just marked as spam - possibly the included link? I hope you can see it, anyway.

[mme-hardy.livejournal.com]

I was scanning AO3 for Natasha/Clint (there's a lot of it, and very little good) and found this funny non-explicit vignette. You have to be willing to cope with alien sex pollen, though.

Cupid: Or The Whore With A Bow and Arrow (http://archiveofourown.org/works/404122?page=1).