Ash: A Secret History, by Mary Gentle (Read-along)

[rachelmanija]

cahn is reading for the first time, I'm enjoying the live blog which started here, with spoilers decodable at rot13.com: https://rachelmanija.dreamwidth.org/2242114.html?thread=25025346#cmt25025346

I put up this post so she can liveblog without either being spoiled or having to code everything. Please don't spoil her for future events. If you haven't read the book yet, be aware that there will be spoilers in comments.

Comments

[cahn]

yesssss! Lol.

Okay, so I got to 21% through tonight (now going to bed REALLY, er, so I hope) and nothing super weird has happened in the last 2% or so, since THE SUN WENT OUT and HER VISIGOTH CARTHIGINIAN TWIN JUST TOLD HER SHE WAS PART OF A BREEDING PROGRAM TO HEAR A MACHINE (!!!!) and PRIMARY HISTORICAL SOURCES HAVE STARTED TO BE RECLASSIFIED AS FICTION WHAT

oh, no, wait ,the sun came back but ONLY IN BURGUNDY

[rachelmanija]

Oh yeah, JUST SINCE THAT.

So glad for the footnotes, because all else aside, all I previously knew about the Visigoths is that there were Visigoths and Vandals, and literally that was it: two words for groups of people vaguely linked in my mind.

Got any theories yet on, uh, anything?

[mildred_of_midgard]

I'm really enjoying this! Please keep up the liveblogging!

23%

[cahn]

OH MY GOD MAYBE BURGUNDY LITERALLY DISAPPEARED

...that would explain a lot about the Joan of Arc story, wouldn't it -- /does not actually know very much about Joan of Arc but vaguely remembers the story kinda doesn't really make sense??

I have no idea how you could think the emails were boring!!

(although I also adored Possession, can you tell I trained to be an academic)

I can't believe I'm not even ONE QUARTER through this book

Re: 23%

[cahn]

OMG I actually wrote "maybe it's alternate universes!" and then erased it because oh come on, and then TWO PAGES LATER.

[cahn]

So the one issue I have with this book -- or more of a cognitive weirdness? -- is that the ostensible translated text of the "Life" that we're reading is not at all medieval, it's very clearly a modern-era text, not just because of the word choice on an individual-word level (which obviously could be put down to translation) but because of everything about the narration. And the usual conceit in cases like this is, in modern fiction, is to take the "modern-narrated" sections as truth. That is to say, I don't actually know if I'm supposed to take the "Life" as the "truth" of what actually happened -- and if not, how accurate I'm supposed to take it to be.

I mean, I think I am supposed to take it as literal truth (thus the lampshading of Mithras and Carthage and Visigoths), but then it messes with my perception of the general accuracy of medieval (historical in general) documents. Which is probably part of the point (see also your original post) but... are you going to say that all the miracles in [insert doc here] are... but actually that's exactly what Ash is saying about its document... huh.

(In the text I see that Joan of Arc was indeed a thing. Hm.)

Mildred, in particular since I know you have experience with this -- how did this work for you? (Unless it's spoilery.)

[mildred_of_midgard]

You're not going to like my answer, which is that while I liked the book, enough to start rereading it, I liked it rather less than you and Rachel apparently do. I read it at a very superficial level, skimming the emails, skipping the notes, keeping vague track of the plot, and just enjoying the character interactions. I didn't engage much with the intertextual/metatextual/framing narrative complexities. I was there to engage emotionally with Ash the character, not with the text.

Part of the reason I'm enjoying and encouraging your liveblogging is that I'm going to try to do a better job engaging with the text this time around (although I'm still there primarily for Ash), and having other people's commentary makes that easier and therefore more likely to happen. I can say that I agree the narration is extremely modern, but I don't remember how that played out with all the crazy developments in the end. (I just remember there were a lot of crazy developments, and I referenced them a few years back in some unpublished essay I wrote about Tolkien, who was also an underappreciated master of the intertextual, metatextual, and framing devices. Come to think of it, the whole modern vs. medieval narrative approaches in LOTR vs Silmarillion come up a lot in scholarship.)

Sorry if you were hoping for something more insightful, but maybe you'll get something if I finish rereading! ("If" because I'm extreeemely distracted by paleoanthropology rereading--something clicked in my brain last weekend such that I'm now capable of grasping all sorts of paleoanthropology research that I wasn't previously.)

32%

[cahn]

Not got a lot to report here -- all my wtf moments have been character ones (Godfrey is in love with Ash?? the mercenaries are all upset that Floria is a LESBIAN wtf??) rather than plot ones.

Except I'm still hung up on this sun thing, how does that EVEN WORK

ETA: yeah, and so much going on I forgot to mention the part where she's PREGNANT

Re: 32%

[rachelmanija]

How did you like Floria being Florian? That totally, er, FLOORED me when I first read it.

The sun... well... what do you know about it at this point?

Your ETA: And to think that both George R. R. Martin and Robert Jordan wrote entire books in which basically nothing happens but some characters move from point A to point B.

small note at 34%

[cahn]

Heh, I love that Ash thinks He's a gunner! in exactly the same delighted (well, I mean, as much as possible given context) way I would say, "He's such an engineer!" And obviously Gentle means to evoke that, lol.

(Also, HUH. So it IS getting colder. Like, it actually makes less sense to me that it was warm before, because, uh, sun heat, but...)

Re: small note at 34%

[cahn]

OMG it actually IS a golem! Made by a rabbi and everything!

42%

[cahn]

WHAT EVEN JUST HAPPENED

There are voices PLURAL
saying Burgundy has to go
And Ash just brought an earthquake down

Pierce has this theory that miracles are genetic and this is probably lampshading Ash having the genetic ability to do miracles

She was remembering bringing down an earthquake before? When was that?

Re: 42%

[rachelmanija]

YESSS YOU GOT TO THAT PART.

Hmm, I don't remember Ash causing an earthquake before. Maybe there was some little tremor at some previous point that I forgot?

43%

[cahn]

ummmm wow, the mutability of the past!!!!

I meant to say this some time ago, but quantum mechanics DOES NOT imply that the past is mutable. Everyone always tries to use this in SF so it barely bothers me any more, but I feel that I need to mention that this is actually NOT TRUE.

Also this whole racial subconsciousness collapsing the waveform thing is TOTAL NONSENSE.

But anyway none of that matters for the story, really.

Also, the golem dates as current????

My revised theory of how it ends is that everything Pierce and Isobel find is explained away to fit our ("real-life") timeline, with maybe a couple of weirdnesses that no one can really explain.

Re: 43%

[rachelmanija]

Hahaha. I always assume "quantum mechanics" is a synonym for "magic."

47%

[cahn]

Carthage, ancient city, victor over the Romans!

WHAT

Re: 47%

[rachelmanija]

LOLOLOLOL.

48%

[cahn]

Okay let me see if I can sum this up.

-The Prophet Gundobad found giant spontaneously-generating pyramid intelligences and was sufficiently intimidated by them that he performed a miracle to teleport to Rome, killed the Pope, and died.

-When the Rabbi made the golem the Wild Machines needed more power to power it and got it from the sun, hence the Darkness (but only light not heat because Magic). So presumably if the stone machine were destroyed then the sun would come back??

-recently they wanted more power for... unknown?? and that's why the sun went out more and also the cold

-The pyramids want to bring about the "Last Days" because?? they just don't like humans??

-No wait, they mostly want to destroy Burgundy. Because?????

-They bred Faris, I thought because they wanted to be able to talk to someone, but now I am not sure

-Ash is a wild card because they didn't think she would be able to get them to answer them

All adding up to... I don't know. I do not know where this is going!

Re: 48%

[rachelmanija]

The Prophet Gundobad found giant spontaneously-generating pyramid intelligences and was sufficiently intimidated by them that he performed a miracle to teleport to Rome, killed the Pope, and died.

What a time to be alive and to write such a sentence.

I love that the antagonist is PYRAMIDS. I mean. They can't move!

quick note

[cahn]

Have to work, probably more tonight, but -- I realized some time ago that either Florian or Fernando had to be the author of the "del Guiz Life" but it wasn't until this morning when reading over breakfast that I realized that ANGELOTTI was the author of the "Angelotti Life"! I feel dumb now :) ETA: Actually it's kind of interesting, when I think about it -- it's like I have a whole separate partition in my brain for "people in this story" and "historical figure who may have written a historical document" (even if only in the novel). Which is part of the whole point of the book, of course!

(On one hand it would obviously be awesome if Florian were the author, but on the other hand I would get a kick out of Fernando writing all that stuff about how good-looking Fernando was and how Ash was totally sexually into him, lol, but also about how cowardly he was.)

Re: quick note

[rachelmanija]

Oh, yeah, I had that exact same lightbulb at some point. It's because we hear about the Angelotti manuscript before we meet actual Angelotti, I think.

It might have been stated one way or the other and I missed it, but I think Fernando is the author of the del Guiz manuscript for the exact reasons you state, which is indeed hilarious. It definitely adds another layer of uncertainty to the whole story.

53% / beginning of Part 10

[cahn]

"Final part of the document 'Fraxinus me fecit'"

wtf
this is only 53%! What's going to happen for the rest of the book????

Also, I have been thinking: the most over-the-top resolution of the present-day part would be that the result of them unearthing Visigoth Carthage and the Stone Golem (and maybe the Pyramids?) is that the Pyramids start their plots again to Take Over the World. Only since Burgundy is already gone why would they, I guess.

(I've also been wondering if Burgundy has to die because the pyramids are Really from the Future and trying to change history to keep the valid timeline because I totally wrote this fanfic when I was a teenager)

Pierce also keeps bringing up that Ash died in Jan 1477 (very shortly after the events of 'Fraxinus') and I am so curious about that????

Re: 53% / beginning of Part 10

[cahn]

wait what

Ash and Faris are HEARING GODFREY'S VOICE

Tbh I was totally expecting to see that Ash could perform miracles (after having brought the earthquake) and having Godfrey come back to life in the sewers, but when he was clearly dead I didn't think about it any more. And Ash has flatly denied being able to perform any sort of miracle.

But Godfrey??

61%

[cahn]

oh haha they found the continuation of Fraxinus, I should have seen that coming

So Charles knows Why Burgundy! But he hasn't told us and I was freaking out when I thought the manuscript had ended

So Ash has been hammering home the point that without the Stone Golem the pyramids can't communicate... well... they've found the Stone Golem now...! hmmmmm! I wonder if Pierce or Isobel is a wonderworker... (maybe Isobel, she keeps finding interesting things)

Re: 61%

[rachelmanija]

Oh right! I forgot about that amazing troll where we're told that the manuscript ends on a cliffhanger, only for more manuscript to turn up.

66%

[cahn]

Man, I think I picked the worst week possible to read this book (in terms of having very little free time to read). I can't wait until the weekend when I ought to have time to finish it!

So now we know that Burgundy is keeping the entire world from being destroyed by the pyramids ... because ... ????

Charles knows what the deal is with Burgundy but now he is dying and can't tell anyone! (Unless the deal just was "it's keeping the pyramids from destroying us" but that would be hugely Not Satisfying.)
Ash is hanging out with Faris and trying to convince her to destroy the Stone Golem!

...Only we know it was never destroyed, apparently Carthage was destroyed instead????

Re: 66%

[cahn]

Ash doesn't know whether to trust Faris and Godfrey is invoked and she DOES make the decision to trust her and Faris repays that trust -- that just pushes ALL MY BUTTONS

if Faris had killed Dijon instead I would have thrown this book across the room

actually of course I wouldn't have because kindle but I would have wanted to

69%

[cahn]

(sneaking in some reading, should be doing other things)

OMG FLORIAN KILLED THE HART DOES THAT MEAN SHE IS DUKE NOW????

Re: 69%

[rachelmanija]

WHAT DO YOU THINK????

79%

[cahn]

omg Burgundy was ALSO pursuing its own amateur breeding program to STOP miracles AHAHAHHA

Re: 79%

[rachelmanija]

YESSSSSS.

80%

[cahn]

JOHN DE VERE THIRTEENTH EARL OF OXFORD

if there's a trope that gets me more than the defender arriving in the nick of time, I could not tell you what it was (well, okay, reluctant trust, but we've already had that)

Re: 80%

[rachelmanija]

Same. And same! This book hit so many of my buttons, I can't even tell you. It even had adorable rats! (I love rats.)

85%

[cahn]

gdi Fernando!! what is your PROBLEM??!! "silver hair and brown eyes" indeed

Re: 85%

[cahn]

holy heck the Faris is surrendering herself????

89%

[cahn]

GODFREY

WHY IS IT RAINING INSIDE

(I think the most utterly devastating part was actually the part where he was like "but suicide is a sin" and she answered, "I thought of that, that's why I'm ordering you")

ASH
GODFREY

I am also in awe that the most vivid and heartbreaking relationship in this book is a platonic friendship between a woman and a dead guy

Re: 89%

[rachelmanija]

OUCH.

100%

[cahn]

WELL. Some books don't have endings that are satisfying after all the buildup of the rest of the book, but I can safely say Ash is not one of them :)

That was a WILD ride, an AMAZING climax, and a great ending :D The Pyramids were actually not acting out of malice! Ash and the Pyramid-computers rewrote all of history! She wrote herself back into history! OMG.

(I mean I had to seriously call upon all my suspension of disbelief for the "science" and "academia" but, once I did that :) )

I am still processing. I might go over to the spoiler post and process more there :P

Re: 100%

[rachelmanija]

YESSSS. Wasn't that an amazingly wild ride?

And the ending! I loved the ending. Bittersweet because not everyone made it (which is also appropriately mind-bending because even if they'd lived to be a hundred, they'd still be hundreds of years dead) but overall surprisingly happy. And the bit where Ash casually points out that she's not even twenty yet!

49%

[mildred_of_midgard]

Schliemann discovered Troy in 1871 by searching where Homer sited it in the ILIAD – but he didn’t discover, when he excavated it, that the Bronze Age city of Troy had been constructed in the 1870s!

Ha, no. Schliemann had the opposite problem. He blasted his way through half the site, including the layer that would date to when the Trojan War would have taken place, found something much older, and decided it was "the" Troy. Ditto at Mycenae: the mask of "I have gazed upon the face of" Agamemnon fame is a few centuries too old to be Agamemnon. Oops!

Meanwhile, everything of interest above the layer Schliemann decided on fell prey to his methods of rapid excavation, which included dynamite, and now we're stuck trying to do responsible archaeology on damaged sites. But he gets credit for "discovering" the site at which a responsible dig was already happening. What he should get credit for is what he was actually good at: funding and publicity. If only he had stuck to that.

Re: 49%

[cahn]

LOL! I did not know that at all! I mean, I knew the romanticized "Schliemann found all this stuff no one took seriously" version. So it's good to finally know more about it :P :)

54%

[mildred_of_midgard]

“Ash always comes back. That’s what they’ve been saying since Carthage. That you’ll always come back to the company. You will come back, boss?”

“Though all the army of the Visigoths lie between,” Ash said lightly, mock-grandly;

Did she just paraphrase LOTR???

‘But I say to you, Éomer, that in battle we may yet meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor should stand between.’

Or is that a more common saying?

Re: 54%

[cahn]

Huh, that line made me think of "The Highwayman"! (I'll come to thee by moonlight, though hell should bar the way!) The LOTR quote is closer, of course.

57%

[mildred_of_midgard]

Okay, so I'm still here for the characters, and this has to be my favorite part so far: the company won't leave Ash, and even Anselm wants her to be in command. This is THE BEST.