Politics: US/Canada

[rachelmanija]

Here is a free article from the New York Time about why the Canadian government believes that America is serious about annexing Canada.

I have talked to a number of Americans about this, and most of them have replied that Trump is not serious about this, is just trolling, and we're playing into his hands if we take it seriously. There seems to be a big disjunct between what the President of America is saying and doing, what the Canadian government believes is happening, what Canadian citizens believe is happening, and what the American public believes is happening.

Please read at least the article I linked above before you comment on this post.

Here are some more links, if you're interested.

Mother Jones asks around

Advice from a Canadian on how not to be an American asshole. (I personally think there is some utility in using the trappings of American patriotism to discuss issues with certain Americans, that point has now been stated, let's not spend the whole discussion on it.)

Similarly, how Americans can use language.

Once again, please read at least the first article before commenting.

Also, here and in general, please keep in mind that anything you communicate in an electronic medium could be read by the US government and potentially used against you. This goes not only for public posts like this one, but for locked posts, emails, and phone calls. I am absolutely serious about this. If mere dissent becomes illegal we're all fucked anyway, but just in general, do not even fantasize about anything that is illegal now.

Comments

[topaz_eyes]

(Here from my network, feel free to delete this if it's not appropriate)

I'm Canadian. In my view, the NYT article actually glosses over the real reason--it talks about what Trump is doing, but not why. The Mother Jones article is closer with its "hemispheric control" comment. Because what Trump is really talking about, what he wants, is Manifest Destiny, the conviction that the US has the right and the destiny to own *all* of North America for its own: its land, its natural resources, and its peoples. (Also see: Trump's threats against Greenland.) Especially now, in the advent of climate change, in the advent of impending water and resource shortages; when there are these sparsely populated countries right next door, with oodles of natural resources just "waiting" to be exploited in the name of the US--if only those countries could be convinced to join it. Either willingly or by force.

The provinces of Canada became the Dominion of Canada under Confederation in 1867, in order to prevent that Manifest Destiny from taking over British North America, the way the US annexed the formerly independent Republic of Texas in 1845. Canada has always lived with the threat of Manifest Destiny over our heads. Up until about the 1980s, Canada was always somewhat wary of the US and what it really wanted from us. Canada did start to cleave culturally more towards the US and away from the UK after WW2. But I think after we repatriated our Constitution in 1982, we as a fully-fledged country became complacent in our sovereignty, and we kind of started to dismiss the threat.

Canada is absolutely certain that Trump is a threat to our sovereignty, so we must take this threat seriously. The fentanyl issue that supposedly sparked the US tariffs was a complete lie. Do Americans honestly believe that the 19.5 kg (42 pounds) of fentanyl that entered the US from Canada in 2023, was enough reason to try to crush our economy with billions of dollars worth of tariffs? When the amount of drugs and firearms that flow north from the US to Canada--in far greater amounts--is a far greater blight on our country? It was never about the fentanyl.

Trump hates our supply-managed egg and dairy industry because it means he can't flood cheap American products into the Canadian market. Yet Canada is not the country paying $6-8 USD for a dozen eggs right now. Our system has actually protected our industry from the H5N1 epidemic ravaging the US industry. But Americans will never hear that truth from him.

That "Idealistic Pragmatist" Bluesky post about annexation is absolutely correct though: Believe what Canadians are telling you about Trump's threats to annex Canada. Now, I live in what is probably Canada's most "American" province, i.e. Alberta. I can say, however, that even Albertans are incredibly concerned about these threats too. Plus, we're probably going to have an election very soon now that we have a new prime minister. You can bet this will be the #1 election issue.

[dewline]

We're absolutely certain that he means it. He wants us erased as a country from the map of the world, and from what I see of what he's doing to people within the current US borders, what he and Hegseth are up to about Panama and so on...we're taking it as a threat.

It's the Oldest Canadian Nightmare he's unleashed in our brains up here.

[spiralsheep]

Agree with you, except I think Manifest Destiny is for show (especially to xtian right supporters) and what the billionaires backing this actually want isn't "hemispheric" control but full climate zone control, i.e. Antarctic to Arctic circle, which North + Panama won't achieve. The Americas are the only place they can grab Ant-Arctic control. Giving Russia an open goal in the Black Sea (Ukraine+) and the Baltic leaves Russia on limited latitudes, and means Russia and Europe and eventually India and China likely exhaust each other, which would be convenient to a future full Ant-Arctic America. Launching uploaded consciousness to Mars is a ridiculable back-up plan, but survival as a resource-hoarding elite requires access to extensive territory on Earth.

[conuly]

When it comes to seriousness, Trump's statements are always Schrodinger's truth - they're a joke, they're rhetoric, they're trolling... right up until they're not.

Mind, there's a big difference between the question of whether or not Trump may or may not intend to annex Canada and whether or not he's going to attempt to act on it, and furthermore, whether or not that act will at all get him the result he presumably wants, which is an annexed Canada. Those are questions I really cannot answer.

But on the question of what he means, it's definitely both serious and not until that waveform collapses.

[em_h]

Canadian here. I don't think he's likely to get an annexed Canada in the long run, but I think he's prepared to destroy both countries in the attempt.

[genarti]

Yeah.

Which leads to the exhausting situation of trying to respond to and plan around something patently absurd (but also absurdly dangerous!) that might or might not ever happen, but is going to sound like the most ludicrous of incoherent trolling right up until it does happen, if it does.

(American, but I work for a Canadian company and generally have a lot of friends and connections across the border. I am proceeding as best I can right now in the assumption that there's not much I can do about it, but I'm definitely stressed on behalf of... well, the entire world, but definitely Canada and Greenland both.)

[rachelmanija]

This is why we should not have mad kings.

Or any kings, really.

[larryhammer]

My go-to message for protest signs right now is NO NAZI NO KING

[rydra_wong]

Ooh, good one.

[rachelmanija]

Love it.

[lannamichaels]

This is also among the reasons why a lot of people didn't want the US to have standing army.

[lorata]

Read the article and it left me bemused.

Canadian with a different opinion than the vaunted New York Times, apparently, which is that (as per the Toronto Star) this is an election year and all the leaders know that the more they throw Never 51 around the more support they get. Do I think Trudeau, Carney or anyone else in the government actually thinks he means it? Absolutely not. I DO think they have to take it seriously, both because it's the smart move politically and because That Man is extremely capricious and it's better safe than sorry.

[recessional]

So I've said some things elsewhere but I also think that like . . . .:considers words:

I think something that the articles and even a bunch of the threads above don't entirely engage with is that the tariffs are already violence. The trade shit he's fucking up is already hostile and violent intent; it's already a massive harm. It's also shooting himself in the foot (there's a reason that the US is entwined with us, trade wise, and it's not the Goodness of the United States of America's Heart), but it is taking a de-facto trade relationship and cultural-social relationship that has been based on the assumption of mutual goodwill (more or less) for over a hundred years, and pissing on it and then lighting it on fire.

Part of what the "threat to sovereignty is serious" thing is also just establishing amongst themselves that no seriously: this US president is just that fucking batshit. Even though last time we were able to manipulate and handle and deal with him so that we managed to maintain the hundred years' status quo, this time he's out of his fucking mind and these are not negotiating ploys or little performances where we can thread the needle: he's actually lit everything on fire.

Do they actually think Trump is capable of actually attempting a violent invasion? Ehn. Do they think he wishes he were? Definitely. Do they think he's going to cause more problems and pull more bullshit as things continue to not actually go his way, and that it's time to stop even pretending that cooperation is worthwhile? 100% - and that is the part that is "taking this seriously", that it feels like the NYT missed.

I think that there's also some investment in the part of the NYT in believing that both Trump and Trump's USA are the most horrifying things in the world - its own kind of American exceptionalism, etc. So there's that.

[recessional]

. . . also, separately: this is a public post so with more circumspection than I feel - the bsky post about "how to be a good American" is, um. A bit histrionic, from my perspective.

I do not need any particular performative self-flagellation from Americans, nor any deep and earnest reflection. Trump is significantly more of a threat to y'all than he is to me and mine, bluntly, and the idea that at this point comparisons of y'all to Russia (and implicitly us to Ukraine) is actually kind of . . . like this is the bit that I have reworded myself around multiple times because of the venue but I think it is safe to say that until there has at least been an actual major sponsorship of a violent separatist group*, this is . . . an absurd equivocation.

"Don't jump into the middle of Canadians talking to other Canadians about how this shit is freaking them out to refocus the topic on you/your fear" is more or less what you actually need, followed by, "don't be surprised if Canadian strangers don't give much of a shit that it hurts your feelings when they're hissy about American Stuff in general".

But uh. Yeah the rest of that is, mmmmkay no the important-to-me people I have who live in the US have way more to fear from Trump's bullshit than I do, and I do not need or expect them to spend what emotional strength they have Being Humble about shit or otherwise Performing Good Americanness for me, or frankly to be that worried about my shit when their wellbeing is quite literally already being endangered, and I . . . find that thread seems to be more concerned with Establishing The Proper Social Hierarchy than it is about anything else.



*anyone who does not know why less than a million dollars all told towards a bunch of annoying assholes in Ottawa who were dispersed by the most restrained and well-behaved police action against a protest I've ever seen, by people who were vaguely ideologically aligned to the asshole, is not the same as active state sponsored provision of weapons and promises - fulfilled! - of military support to the tune of ~9K soldiers in an actual shooting war aimed at the splitting off of a large chunk of territory just . . . look, it's not, and it's exactly that implied kind of equivocation that is frankly pretty . . . .

I just. No. Okay? No.

[sabotabby]

Thanks for this. It's really hard up here; we are watching a terrifying shitshow where people are being rounded up from their homes and disappeared and we're not able to sit back on our smug laurels like we normally do. Also there is a credible threat that the politician who could become the next PM is a Trump-aligned foreign asset who will roll over or collaborate with the regime.

That said, Canadian sovereignty is a lie based on the ongoing genocide of Indigenous peoples, and it's very hard to navigate the surge of nationalism and this "Elbows up" shit in a way that is responsible and also opposes colonialism and exploitation.

[topaz_eyes]

That said, Canadian sovereignty is a lie based on the ongoing genocide of Indigenous peoples,

One might say the same thing about the US, however, given its own history of Indian residential schools; the US government fights with Native American tribes over land and resources; ignoring signed treaties; white settlers colonizing stolen land; and the existing (and huge) health and funding disparities for Native Americans compared to other groups in the US. I'm not saying this to excuse Canada's ongoing genocide at all--I am appalled by how our federal government is currently reneging on Jordan's Principle for example. But if anyone believes Indigenous peoples in Canada will be better off in an annexed "51st US state" (territory, it will likely be a territory), I think they'll be gravely mistaken.

and it's very hard to navigate the surge of nationalism and this "Elbows up" shit in a way that is responsible and also opposes colonialism and exploitation.

You say so yourself, we are watching a terrifying shitshow where people are being rounded up from their homes and disappeared--which *will* happen in Canada too, if the unthinkable ever happens. Trump's attempt at Manifest Destiny is the ultimate expression of US colonialism, which I think will lead to even more exploitation. Maybe opposing Trump's US colonialism and exploitation will have a knock-on effect after the threat passes, I don't know. But Canada as a whole does need to be united now, because:

Also there is a credible threat that the politician who could become the next PM is a Trump-aligned foreign asset who will roll over or collaborate with the regime.

This is true and we need to vote against any Canadian politician who supports Trump.

[sabotabby]

I think a lot of folks I follow are asking, "well, what would be the difference?" Which I think is an important—possibly, in the end, one of the most important questions to ask, but it also feels a bit like "what's the difference between genocidal Democrats and genocidal Republicans" and it turns out yeah there is in fact a giant difference.

[rachelmanija]

Thanks for that point. Any links to Indigenous people's take on the situation?

[sabotabby]

So I'm following Chelsea Vowel, who is posting quite a bit on this, with the caveat that she's also had to give about 3000 times that a lot of her longer threads are taken out of context. I love her writing and I think she has a very valid set of takes. This is a good example of where she's at. There's quite a lot of dialogue with other Indigenous folks with varying opinions about Canadian nationalism there. Including one from a friend of mine but now I can't find either the post or their handle and they tend to vanish from socials a lot.

Essentially, she frames Canada as a necessary evil, which is also my take, because as genocidal as our nationalism is (and I'm not exaggerating—it is literally genocidal), it can always get worse.

[sabotabby]

Which is to say, my friend's comment to one of their posts was "we should just give Canada to the US at this point," which people got Big Mad at because they hadn't read the post that they were responding to, but I did think it was a really interesting discussion.

[treewishes]

As an American (with Canadian connections), this is quite serious. Canada just doesn't have good ways to deal with "little green men" walking into Ottawa and taking control.

No country does - it's a standing threat and we haven't acknowledged it and established counters. It could and likely will happen soon.