Write-up won by [livejournal.com profile] coraa for [livejournal.com profile] helphaiti. The translation is by Sioned Davies.

I had never before read these medieval Welsh tales, though I was vaguely aware that they were influential on Lloyd Alexander’s Prydain series, Alan Garner’s The Owl Service, Susan Cooper’s “Dark is Rising” series, Madeleine L’Engle’s A Swiftly Tilting Planet, and a number of other fantasy novels that I have read. (I know about Evangeline Walton’s books but I haven’t read them.)

[livejournal.com profile] coraa intrigued me by describing one branch as “gay incestuous genderswitching bestiality MPREG” – a completely accurate description, by the way. She also mentioned the king who needed to keep his feet in the lap of a virgin at all times. Also completely accurate!

I almost always enjoy reading myths and ancient tales, and this was no exception. The stories are dreamlike, complete with sudden shifts in perspective and dissolves into new lands and new scenes. The logic by which events occur is also dreamlike, intuitive, based on emotion and fairytale motifs rather than psychological realism. They are surreal but not random, tapping into the raw materials of the human psyche: rational and irrational fears, the metaphors by which we shade our eyes from thoughts otherwise too bright or dark to directly perceive.

As I read the stories and compared them to the modern works which took at least a little inspiration from them, I thought how little modern fantasy even attempts to recreate the atmosphere of myth as opposed to borrowing characters and events, and how rational and predictable are most systems of magic in modern fantasy. I like a lot of modern fantasy. But sometimes I wish more of it would dip into the substance as well as the set dressing of its roots. Not everything has to be realistic, nor does everything have to be explained. If we can’t find mystery and stories in which the events are driven by the characters’ emotions and inner landscapes in fantasy, where can we find it? (That’s rhetorical. Modern stories of that nature are usually published as magic realism, though there are some exceptions.)

I began my reading by looking up pronunciation notes, which were rather terrifying. If I applied them correctly, “Nghymru” (Wales) is pronounced “Ingimri,” and “Pwyll” is pronounced "Poo-i-[voiceless breathy sound]". Then I found, in those notes, a few ready-made phonetic pronunciations for important names. However, since they were all along the lines of “Gooyd-eeon” and “Gill-vaye-thooee,” I didn’t find them as helpful as I had initially hoped. Most intimidating language since Mandarin!

In the First Branch, Prince Pwyll goes out hunting, scares a pack of white hounds with red ears from a stag, and feeds it to his own pack. Even one as ignorant of Welsh myth as I could have told him it is always a bad idea to interfere with obviously supernatural creatures. Sure enough, the hounds belong to Arawn, king of Annwfn. The notes helpfully explain that the latter is an “Otherworld,” not any sort of Hell.

Unlike Lloyd Alexander’s Evil Overlord, this Arawn is reasonable about the insult and only asks to switch places with Pwyll for a year so Pwyll can kill one of his enemies for him. The extremely honorable Pwyll does so, sleeping with Arawn’s beautiful wife for an entire year but refusing to have sex with her. When he returns, his wife is extremely grateful that he’s suddenly willing to have sex with her again, for Arawn disguised as Pwyll did the exact same thing. Granted that sex under those circumstances would not be consensual in the normal sense… those poor ignored wives! ("Those poor women" was a thought I often had while reading this.)

Since I earlier mentioned fairy-tale elements being literalizations of the inner landscape, what I take from that, at least, is the terrifying sense of not knowing the man you're bound yourself to - the feeling that he's changed so much, or that you never really knew him in the first place - that he's a different person wearing your man's skin.

Anyway, Pwyll and Arawn are best friends forever after. No further mention of their wives.

But then Pwyll encounters the beautiful Rhiannon, who has somehow fallen in love with Pwyll and asks him to rescue her from her engagement to a man she doesn’t love. But a mysterious suppliant comes up to Pwyll and begs for an unspecified favor.

“Ask what it is first,” I thought.

“Anything!” says Pwyll.

“Why did you say that?” exclaims Rhiannon, reading my mind.

“I want to sleep with and marry the woman you love,” says the not-so-mysterious suppliant.

“Pwyll, you idiot,” I thought.

“Never has a man been more stupid than you have been,” says Rhiannon, not needing to read my mind.

She goes on to explain that the suppliant is Gwawl son of Clud, her unwanted fiancé. (Pronounced Goo-a-ool son of Clid. I think.) She proceeds to outline an elaborate plot for trapping Gwawl in a bag and beating the hell out of him. Not only does this work like a charm, Rhiannon then gets Gwawl to agree not to seek vengeance. I don’t know why Rhiannon isn’t ruling the world at this point, but instead she settles down with Pwyll and gets pregnant.

But alas! Her baby disappears, and Rhiannon’s serving women, to avoid getting blamed for sleeping on the job, kill some puppies and smear her mouth with blood so everyone will think she’s eaten the baby. Bizarre as it is, this is not an uncommon fairytale motif: I can think of a couple other stories where this happens, including one from India. I think it taps into various anxieties, from seeing animals eat their young, to the nightmare-terror of being accused of something horrible and untrue – perhaps even the phenomenon of psychotic post-partum depression, in which women very occasionally do kill their babies.

Pwyll sort of believes Rhiannon’s story, but neither of them can prove anything. Rhiannon has to sit outside on a mounting block, tell any strangers the story, and offer to carry them to court. Meanwhile, to my total lack of surprise, a baby mysteriously shows up on the doorstep of a neighboring lord, via an “enormous claw” (Grendel, on a road trip?) He and his wife adopt the baby, who grows supernaturally fast, luckily for Rhiannon, who is still stuck outside giving strangers piggyback rides.

Then, in a twist I was not expecting due to the usual prevalence of coincidences and birthmarks in similar stories, the lord hears about Rhiannon and logically deduces who the child really is. Also to my surprise, he and his wife talk it over and decide to return the boy rather than trying to keep the whole thing a secret. Rhiannon is vindicated, the boy is renamed Pryderi, and everyone lives happily ever after, at least until the next branch. Hopefully not including the lying, puppy-killing serving women. I expect Rhiannon had some ideas about what to do about them.

From: [identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com


Quickie "ll" pronouncing guide!

Ll is an aspirated version of "l". Put your mouth and tongue into the shape that it takes to say an L, then breathe out like you're huffing an "H". You will probably shower spit over anyone in front of you. I assume that fluent Welsh speakers don't actually drench their companions when speaking to them, but as my semester in Wales was spent mostly in the company of other Americans instead of Welsh people*, I was showered by many a well-meaning American.

The non-well-meaning Americans took the shortcut of pronouncing "ll" as "cl", which is just wrong, wrong, wrong, and I still get twitchy when I hear someone saying "Clanecli" instead of "Llanelli". (Their mistake comes from hearing the short aspirated "ll" and mistaking it for "cl", but I think it's on the order of thinking that the Japanese are saying "r" for "l" and "l" for "r" when the truth is that it is one sound somewhere in between.)

Mind you, I wouldn't pronounce "Pwyll" on a dare without hearing it spoken several times by a native speaker first




* An annoyance about that program, which segregated one-semesters together, and put the yearlong students in with Welsh students, to avoid disrupting the Welsh students by giving them new roomies every semester. The effect was that we tended not to mingle with them, which sort of voids the point of studying abroad.
Edited Date: 2010-03-02 07:27 pm (UTC)

From: [identity profile] rachelmanija.livejournal.com


It seems easier to do that at the beginning of a name than the end. Comparatively easier.

From: [identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com


And my other two Welsh-language stories:

1. The first word I learned in Welsh was "Merched." ("ch" is sort of like the Scots "ch" in "loch" - aspirated "c/k") *pause for those who have been to Wales to remember and laugh* It means "women/ladies/female" type things and labeled doors I needed to seek out quite regularly. ;)

2. Welsh has some truly awesome words in it, including "hiraeth," defined for me by a Welsh professor as "nostalgia for a past that never was." (Also a term of endearment is "sospan bach," which basically means "little saucepan."

And one non-Welsh-language, but nifty Welsh folk tale thing:

We had a class called Celtic World, which was an intro to the culture, myth, history, music, etc. of Wales. We'd take field trips every other week. One week we rode the vans to a hilly area, and climbed a long, winding road up a hill to a small pond surrounded on three sides by steep hills/mountains* whose tops disappeared into clouds, so I had no idea how tall they were.

Our teacher told us a version of this folktale (http://anamchara.blogs.com/anamchara/2010/02/homily-for-second-sunday-of-lent22810true-seeing-is-true-believing.html) about a cowherd and a fairy woman who became his wife, and then said "This is that lake."

That was a pretty powerful moment. :)



* Mountains by Welsh standards, not by, say, Colorado standards.
zeborah: Map of New Zealand with a zebra salient (Default)

From: [personal profile] zeborah


When I was in Korea I read a bunch of folktales and then went to the city where a number of them had been set. Here's *that* temple, and this must be *that* well, and these are the foundations of *that* palace...

And then visiting Cape Reinga (three syllables and 'ng' is a dipthong) which I've known it seems all my life is, by Māori tradition, the last place in New Zealand that the spirits of the dead see on their journey to the underworld -- and getting there and seeing that wow, there really is a pohutukawa tree there!

(which really isn't surprising: if there hadn't been one before, someone would have planted one. But still)

...that was just awesome.
larryhammer: a symbol used in a traditional Iceland magic spell of protection (iceland)

From: [personal profile] larryhammer


I had a similar experience traveling around Iceland, seeing places from the Sagas and from later medieval folktales. Interesting and powerful.

---L.

From: [identity profile] janni.livejournal.com


I had this experience in Iceland--reading a story about a baby abandoned beside a stone, then looking up and seeing that stone right in front of me--not to mention visiting farms still named for their 1000-year-old owners. It changed how I think about folklore and story. And also gave me the repeated experience of feeling like the past was Right There, near enough to touch.

From: [identity profile] veejane.livejournal.com


I took Icelandic in college, and although I kinda sorta learned the unvoiced/aspirated L, which is similar in both languages, I never did master the unvoiced N. Because, it is a nasal! How can there be an unvoiced nasal!

My prof used to say words with it, and it sounded like he was clearing his sinuses. Whereas the unvoiced L just sounds like a disgruntled cat.
zeborah: Map of New Zealand with a zebra salient (Default)

From: [personal profile] zeborah


I can devoice anything I like: I just whisper. My problem is turning the voicing back on in time for the vowels.

From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com


Confession: even though I studied medieval Welsh in college, I still mentally mispronounce about half the names.

I'm glad you're enjoying these! My favorite thing about the Mabinogion is the way the events are surreal but often make emotional sense, so they're extremely strange but not random. That's actually true of a lot of medieval fiction, which in many ways is very similar to modern magical reaslism. And yes, I'd love to see more of this in fantasy. You get a lot of Welsh trappings in certain kinds of Celtoid fantasy, but that air of strangeness that still makes sense in terms of emotional resonance. I wonder why it's not used more? Perhaps because it's not easy to walk the fine line between rule-oriented magic and total randomness?

I love poor Rhiannon. She, like a lot of women in the stories, gets the short end of the stick, but not through deliberate helplessness or willful stupidity. (Unlike Pwyll, who could really... stand to... think a little harder about things.)

From: [identity profile] rachelmanija.livejournal.com


"Gawaine and the Green Knight" has a similar sort of emotional logic, come to think of it. I haven't read very much Western medieval literature, though.

It seems like so much post-Tolkien fantasy is much more rule-based than Tolkien's magic was. (What do the three rings of the Elven kings do? What are the limits of Gandalf's magic? Who knows?)

I think there's a sense among writers that magic is supposed to have pre-set rules, and it's bad writing to write any other way.

Sean Stewart and R. A. MacAvoy both wrote interesting fantasy trilogies about rational people trying to make sense of a world which operates by emotional logic.

Lens of the World (Lens of the World Trilogy, Book 1)

King of the Dead (Lens of the World Trilogy, Book II)

The Belly of the Wolf (Lens of the World, Vol 3)

Resurrection Man

Galveston

Night Watch

From: [identity profile] tool-of-satan.livejournal.com


read the MacAvoy trilogy. It made less and less sense to me as it went on, which probably says more about me than the books. I should try re-reading them.

Guy Gavriel Kay puts a fair amount of unexplained magic into his books, I would say: why do the Night Walkers have to do what they do? Why are there gouts of flame in the streets of Sarantium? Why is the forest in The Last Light of the Sun like it is? Etc.

But I agree in general: I can't think of a lot of other writers who do it. (Another is Yves Menard in his The Book of Knights, which I know you have. :))

From: [identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com


I remember getting in an argument on a mailing list about magic. My preference is that magic in books retain a sense of the numinous, and I can't get that when it's reduced to engineering, mathematics, or coding. The people I was arguing with said "But it has to have rules! Or it could do anything!" and I took a long time to get across in an articulate manner that yes, that's a literary concern, but you don't have to spell the rules out in the story. The wizard doesn't have to explain that she can't do X,Y, and Z because of rules A,B, and C - she can just be mysterious, dammit!

Also, the people I was arguing with, once I got my point across, said that sure, but the author has to know the rules so as not to contradict them, which I again don't agree with. Or at least, I don't believe the author has to spend time working out a logically consistent magical system and spells, if it's handled correctly in the story. But that's what they thought had to happen.

I do note that none of the people I was arguing with was a writer, just readers.

From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com


I've heard those arguments, too, sometimes phrased to the point of being absolutes: the magic must have rules, and you must know the rules; otherwise it's laziness. I don't have a problem with fantasy with rules (one of the things that I like a lot about, for instance, Fullmetal Alchemist is that it takes a fantastic premise and treats it as a science), but I don't think that it's the only 'right' way to write fantasy.

To questions like, "But if magic doesn't have rules, what would stop you from just having your heroine sprout wings and fly away when she's in trouble?", my answer is, "...my sense of what makes a good story?" Just because there isn't a mechanical restriction on magic doesn't mean that there can't be an emotional or metaphorical or dramatic logic to it.

(In fact, I think of Angel Sanctuary, where in one scene a character pops out a set of wings [and destroys Tokyo, but that's only to be expected], and then a few chapters later he's hanging over an abyss and his wings don't show up to save him from falling... and yet, within the story, the explanation of why one trauma results in wing-age and another doesn't makes sense to me. It's emotional, but it makes sense. Well, as much sense as the rest of the manga, but. At any rate, it didn't result in a book-meets-wall moment, because I'd already been sold on the book's treatment of magic with more dramatic logic than, well, logic logic. But mileage obviously varies.)

From: [identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com


And when you think about it, a story about a person who sprouts wings and flies away or does something else like that whenever there's trouble could be totally awesome, if you're exploring the logical and emotional consequences of never facing, well, consequences.

From: [identity profile] londonkds.livejournal.com


There can be problems when you don't make up rules but base things on emotional logic, and then you swap the logic without thinking about what the combination implies. See for instance the problem Buffy the Vampire Slayer got into when they suddenly moved into using magic as a symbol for addiction, psychological immaturity, and "magical thinking" in the derogatory sense, after some years of using it as a metaphor for female growth and power and lesbianism.

From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com


Oh yeah, for sure. I think something that makes metaphorical (or emotional) sense still has to make... well, sense, and that doesn't work so well if you swap metaphors around.

From: [identity profile] rachelmanija.livejournal.com


Yeah, that bothered me too. Something has to be consistent. I just think that what the consistent element is can be varied.

From: [identity profile] janni.livejournal.com


A sort of rough consistency, sure ... but I'm tired of hearing writers approach magic as if it were nothing more than an engineering problem, with rules that can be laid out and problems that can be solved.

I like my magic wilder. It shouldn't feel like it shifts at the whim of the writer, but I want it to feel wild, a little unpredictable, a little untamed.

From: [identity profile] etothey.livejournal.com


I'd say that Greer Ilene Gilman's Moonwise (adored it, but found approximately 40% of the language impenetrable, and none of the dictionaries I had access to at the time had the words I didn't know) also does a lovely job of non-rule-based magic. Also Hope Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist does it well, although I seem to be the only person in all creation who hated that book.

Aside: I adored the way Galveston made use of actual Galveston history that I had been forced to study in 6th grade Texas History and which I had supposed, at the time, that I would never find any use for except to use in stories. Now I don't have to because someone else got there first! :-D

From: [identity profile] faithhopetricks.livejournal.com


Ooh, I didn't know Galveston was part of a trilogy.

(I really do enjoy your epic write-ups, meant to say that in the other comment.)

From: [identity profile] amberley.livejournal.com

Sean Stewart


Each of the books stands on its own, but they also fit together, with Resurrection Man set as the tide of magic is rising, and Night Watch as it ebbs leaving the world changed, and Galveston in the middle, although written after the other two. They're among my favorite books, along with Sean Stewart's Mockingbird.
"Talismans, walk-aways, voodoo men and hellmarks and the Five Signs: almost every charm that isn't Chinese has come out of the slums, and for good reason. They are sinks of rage and fear, and the magic festers in them. The cops and the government have pulled out without telling anyone, bit by bit, year by year, abandoning them to their own bad dreams. The housing projects of Johnson's Great Society are haunted now, and deadly. Nobody knows how many people the minotaurs take each year."
Resurrection Man by Sean Stewart

When I think of numinous fantasy I also think of Nancy Springer's Fair Peril, in which things are themselves and also something else.

From: [identity profile] faithhopetricks.livejournal.com

Re: Sean Stewart


I loved Mockingbird, but don't think I've read any of his other novels yet.

From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com


Ooh, nifty! Thank you for the recs.

(And yes, I think that there is a school of thought that pre-set rules are not just a way to write fantasy, but the way, and to do otherwise is laziness. I do like fantasy-with-rules, but I also like numinous fantasy.)

From: [identity profile] daedala.livejournal.com


I sometimes argue that Jones' Divine Endurance is numinous SF.

From: [identity profile] etothey.livejournal.com


Oh, yay!

On fantasy vs. magic realism: I don't know if it's an entirely bad thing that most fantasy magic systems are so rational. I know a mathematician-physicist (one of Joe's coworkers; double PhD, contemplating going after chemistry next) who reads fantasy because he finds the usual sf depiction of scientists to be depressingly irrational and unsatisfying, and he says ironically enough it is in fantasy that you're more likely to find a proper scientific approach to the world.

Welsh orthography looks comparatively rational to me (I was teaching myself a little Welsh at one point, have put it aside to come back to later), but OTOH I was the one who got flummoxed by Irish Gaelic, so who am I to say.

My favorite favorite favorite are Nisien and Efnisien, who you haven't gotten to yet, but then I am a sucker for the twins.

From: [identity profile] faithhopetricks.livejournal.com


(Most awesome Gunn icon ever. What is JAR doing now....? OMG HE ACTUALLY PLAYED A LAWYER I DID NOT KNOW THIS. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0494186/)

From: [identity profile] wordsofastory.livejournal.com


I've wanted to get around to reading The Mabinogion for ages. I really enjoyed this review!

From: [identity profile] faithhopetricks.livejournal.com


I thought how little modern fantasy even attempts to recreate the atmosphere of myth as opposed to borrowing characters and events, and how rational and predictable are most systems of magic in modern fantasy. I like a lot of modern fantasy. But sometimes I wish more of it would dip into the substance as well as the set dressing of its roots. Not everything has to be realistic, nor does everything have to be explained. If we can’t find mystery and stories in which the events are driven by the characters’ emotions and inner landscapes in fantasy, where can we find it?

I really like that point.

I know I have read several blood-smeared-on-the-mouth-of-sleeping-woman type fairy tales, altho I can't remember the names right now.
ext_12542: My default bat icon (Default)

From: [identity profile] batwrangler.livejournal.com


Swan sister / The Seven Swans / The Swan Brothers iterations often use it.
ext_27060: Sumer is icomen in; llude sing cucu! (y maent yr mynyddoedd yn canu)

From: [identity profile] rymenhild.livejournal.com


“Nghymru” (Wales) is pronounced “Ingimri"

"Ng-imri," more or less... except that "Nghymru" is a nasalized form, used only in certain grammatical circumstances. The basic place name is "Cymru", pronounced "kimri."

The rest of your pronunciations are good.

My Welsh professor had a story about how she caught a cold once because she was speaking Welsh instead of English with a bilingual friend. She said that if they'd been speaking English, they wouldn't have done nearly as much accidental spitting!

Thank you for the writeup. Are you doing the other branches, or stopping after Branch 1? I'd love to see what you come up with on the even weirder fairy-tale logic of the Third Branch.

From: [identity profile] amberley.livejournal.com

Now all that's needed is a manga adaption


Thanks for the review/summary, it was very entertaining to read, and lead to speculation about whether there is a manga adaption, and if not, who would be good to do one. I suggested Kaori Yuki, but saner heads suggested Setona Mizushiro, whose excellent After School Nightmare has a dreamlike quality.

From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com

Re: Now all that's needed is a manga adaption


I had exactly the same thought. (About a manga adaptation, I mean, but I also think Kaori Yuki would do delightfully cracktastic things with it.)
ewein2412: (Default)

From: [personal profile] ewein2412


"gay incestuous genderswitching bestiality MPREG”

MY FAVORITE BRANCH!!!!

hee hee hee. When you have finished all four "native tales" you must read "The Fifth Branch" and "Arianrhod, daughter of Don" by [livejournal.com profile] rymenhild.

From: [identity profile] tool-of-satan.livejournal.com


Perhaps. The thing is that most fantasy works' magic systems don't much resemble that of early D&D except of course for that in Jack Vance's Dying Earth books, since Gygax and/or Arneson borrowed it from there.

Come to think of it, the Dying Earth is definitely a milieu in which magic is not particularly rational.

From: [identity profile] green-knight.livejournal.com


Thanks for sharing the writeup! It might help you to think of 'll' as 'lh' (some older texts used to spell it like that) and I like that appraoch better than 'you'll be spitting a lot' because if you do, UR doin it wrong.

The real fun happens when the Welsh-speaking brain encounters Spanish texts. It was... rather embarassing.


I do understand why people are so fond of writing magic with strict rule systems. I'm trying to draw heavily upon, as it happens, the kind of magic you find in the Mabinogion for my archaeology-in-Faerie novel, and half the time I'm flying blind. I have no idea what magicians can do - what can a not-very-proficient magician achieve? A very good one? What's the balance of your natural power, your natural ability to do things with it, and how much can one learn? How reliable is magic?

I'm operating in a system where there are few rules and nobody knows them for certain; something can be true one day and false the next; and different people can encounter different realities. Even without magical ability, you can make things happen; magical ability can be gifted (and probably taken away, too?), and...

Well, it's messy. It's mysterious. Writers and readers have to follow the characters and throw ourselves into the maelstrom of the unknown, and as a writer I am often battling with the lament that what I have makes no sense.

Writing with rules intact would be much, much easier; and I have no idea whether this will work for readers and whether I'll be able to preserve the sense of mystery that stories like the Mabinogion have... and which enthrall so many readers.

From: [identity profile] janni.livejournal.com


But sometimes I wish more of it would dip into the substance as well as the set dressing of its roots. Not everything has to be realistic, nor does everything have to be explained.

Echoing other here. I want that sense of the numinous. I don't want my magic to be indistinguishable from even a sufficiently advanced technology. I do want it to be distinguishable from a set of rpg rules.

Hmm ... a wonder if it's the same crowd complaining we don't read enough science fiction and insisting magic needs the same sort of rules as science -- wanting the things they value in science fiction to be the things we value in all stories.
Edited Date: 2010-03-03 08:51 pm (UTC)

From: [identity profile] janni.livejournal.com


I loved the Four Branches. (The Arthurian stuff after, not so much, but that's just me.)

I love it when old stories don't follow what we've internalized as the rules of how old stories work.
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