(no subject)

[rachelmanija]

cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.

Comments

Re: 90%?

[cicer.livejournal.com]

It is very unfortunate that you don't feel a responsibility to act as an advocate for women. It's also very unfortunate that you feel the need to come into a post about rape and basically say 'this is not actually a problem, and the fact that you as women encounter this sort of thing is your fault because you don't hang out with the right sort of men'.

Re: 90%?

[blistermyeye.livejournal.com]

It was not a post about rape. It was a post about men, and it tarred 90% of men with a vile accusation.

Re: 90%?

[cicer.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is a post about rape. It is a post about the views many men have that create an environment that encourages rape. Of course not all men are rapists. At no point did Rachel say or even imply that.

Rachel expressed that, in her experience, 90% of the men she had come across held rather alarming views about rape. She discussed the fact that many of the men she knew seemed to feel that they were not morally responsible for rape if it occurred under certain circumstances. She discussed that the prevailing attitude is often that women should be responsible for not getting raped, rather than holding men responsible for not raping women.

This does not 'tar' men with any sort of 'accusation'. This is a post discussing how men can and should be encouraged to be advocates against rape.

Re: 90%?

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

it tarred 90% of men with a vile accusation.

What accusation? Do you believe rachelmanija is lying about what men tell her when she discusses this topic with them? Because if you believe that she's telling the truth about her experience, then she's not accusing men. They're accusing themselves in their own words.

Re: 90%?

[cofax7]

Because it's far more important that no men get their feelings hurt by someone thinking them capable of rape than that society be changed in such a way as to make rape far less acceptable, after all?

If men don't like being thought capable of raping someone, perhaps they might take action to change the way men think about women, and act toward women.

Re: 90%?

[mokume-gane.livejournal.com]

Wow, truly thank you for stating this point, exactly like this. I've often felt it but have not had the rational calm words to say it.

When a discussion like this is derailed with the the idea that we have to be so PC so not to offend men, it is indeed a passive aggressive way of agreeing with "non-rapist". Don't side track the point.

And we are all responsible for the way society views woman and rape, even if your personal circle are saints. We all on some level contribute to the attitude of our culture. When I stood at an 'intellecutal' party on frat row in Berkeley, Ca. and we saw groups of scantily clad girls walking down the street. When one guy made an off handed remark about how many of them would be raped tonight. My silence said a lot. As much as I'm not proud of it, as much as I regret it now, I know that was part of the problem.

But also thanks to all those who contributed to the comments, odd way by reading all of you I am comforted, as if the situation is not quite as hopeless as I had imagined it.

Re: 90%?

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

At the risk of making what I feel is an obvious point, of course any man (who is not an eunuch) is capable of rape, and any man who denies this is dangerously out of touch with reality.

This is like saying that any child is capable of arson and any man or woman is capable of murder. The capacity exists. The vast majority of persons will never do such evil acts. Yet the ability is there.

Don't fear to hurt men's feelings with these comments. Fear instead the silence that allows evil to persist.

Re: 90%?

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

It said that that percentage of men believe /one of/ the following. Not all of the following.

The first couple in particular are things that, in my experience, a lot of people (men and women both) think in vague ways that they don't really focus on until they're brought up short, at some point. And it's really not a wholesale accusation, I don't think.

Now, if she had said 90% of men believed /all of/ the following, that would be different.

Re: 90%?

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Did you read what Rachel actually wrote? In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person. She didn't say anything about '90% of men.' Also this post is not about MEN. It is what people (which includes men) are acculturated to believe about rape.

Re: 90%?

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

How is quoting people's own statements a vile accusation?

Re: 90%?

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

An accusation which you're doing your best to prove by not listening and not, apparently, caring very much.