(no subject)

[rachelmanija]

cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.

Comments

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

In no particular order:

vee_ecks is a stereotypical product of the male culture. I am not defending him. I am going to point out however that 1) he came here to talk and invested some time and energy in it, 2) he believes he's a fellow traveler in the effort to stop rape, and 3) he's been chased out because his world view is too far divergent from the majority of commenters -- and ironically enough, much closer to the world view of many, many men.

Chase him off and you have little hope of rational discourse with many, many men.

I am sharing my personal opinion and life experiences, which are somewhat divergent from the OPs, not least of which because I am a man and thus hear more frank conversations from other men. You may of course disagree, but please read what I actually wrote before resorting to knee-jerk responses based on assumptive reading (as your 2, 5, 6 and 7 above).

rachelmanija's perspective is her own, and sufficiently insightful and interesting that it drew various people in, including myself. I appreciate her perceptions and her courage in sharing them.

>> (3) You're drawing an entirely false distinction between "rape myths" and the people (particularly the men) who believe them;

Not a false distinction AT ALL, IMHO. Myths don't have dicks. Myths don't rape. The majority of men who believe in these myths, however obnoxious some people including myself find these myths to be, also don't rape. The myths however do support a social climate in which we don't talk about how to prevent rape; for example, the 'false accusations' meme (which I blatantly dismissed above as a sideshow issue!) taking the place of more important discourse.

However, even if we knock every myth down like the ten-pins they are, there will still be men who rape.

>> (4) You're relying on a gender setup in which masculinity is defined as "protecting women," without giving much thought to the other implications of that setup, or what the women involved actually want;

Our culture and our species utterly rely on the philosophic doctrine of "Women and children first!" I am not writing an academic paper, I am talking about how many if not most men actually feel. Protecting others is only one aspect of masculinity.

>> (5)

Lack of communication due to a combination of fear, uncertainty and lack of respect of others is still a communications issue. Men who are trying to communicate, however poorly, are in a different category than men who are ignoring or disregarding efforts at communication. The former can be taught and/or persuaded not to rape; the latter must be prevented, escaped, or stopped with force.

>> (6) You are demonstrating several of the rape myths

This is not what I said. Read what I wrote. If it is not clear, I am linking the existence of the myths (which ARE in fact myths) with the fact of poor gender communications, which help create and exacerbate said myths. Other commenters have pointed out that communications training was most helpful in creating a safer environment for them; groups such as www.mencanstoprape.org focus on debunking myths and communications skills for the same reason.

Also, I did not recall asking you to judge my contribution for helpfulness, nor did I ask you to censor my reply to you for length or on any other criterion. The OP may feel free to do so; IMHO you lack standing.

Final thought: If I as a man posted in my LJ that 90% of women in my experience . . . [insert BLANK here], and you came to my LJ and shared your perspective as a woman with direct experience, I would not jump down your throat in the same way that you are trying to do to me.

That said, if you feel I am perpetuating any myths about rape, please feel free to call me on it. I welcome the input from a divergent POV.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

You cannot be an ally against rape unless you are willing to listen to what the survivors and victims of rape culture have to say about rape.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

I have replied cogently to your rather hostile seven point comment, which means that I most certainly read it, and I am beginning to believe that not only did you not actually read my original post, but that you did not read my reply either.

1) What makes you think I'm not listening, when all evidence to date is to the contrary?

2) What privileges you to judge anyone at all, let alone the commenters on this LJ post, with respect to being an ally against rape?