(no subject)

[rachelmanija]

cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.

Comments

Re: 90%?

[vee-ecks.livejournal.com]

This. I taught my son my son basically the same stuff about women my conservative dad taught, albeit from opposite motives and philosophy: you do not hit them *ever*, you do not hurt them, you do not take advantage of them if they're weaker like you don't anybody else, you do not rape them.

We're also actually the majority, or there'd be a lot more rapes. And I don't know about anybody else, but I've stepped up on aggressive creepy guys a number of times in my life. I went with a bunch of guys to...ah...strongly encourage a rapist to go away and never come back once, when his victim wouldn't press charges.

I don't make a habit of hanging out with guys who *wouldn't* do that, personally. I guess that would be my only suggestion for any woman who thinks the majority of liberal/left American men are weenies on that score: the world is full of left-leaning (and not) males who've been in fights before and aren't afraid to face down an aggressive bully or take a punch over it, if it comes to that. Hang out with more of those guys. We exist.

BTW, I don't actually have any stories about how I didn't rape my drunk girlfriend, once, just like I don't have any stories about how I didn't murder her or hang her out a window and listen to her screams. That's kind of a weird statement.

Re: 90%?

[vee-ecks.livejournal.com]

Oh, and felt I needed to add this: the world is full of *women* like that, too, and they often make the best shields in that kind of situation. In my experience, anyway.

Re: 90%?

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

But your suggestions are putting the responsibility on to women: who they should hang out with, whom they should surround themselves with.

And the post is originally about what MEN should do to make the world safer for everyone.

Re: 90%?

[vee-ecks.livejournal.com]

Well, if you have nothing but passive men and women around you who won't protect you from harm when it arises, I don't really know what to tell you or how your friends list is my responsibility. You have to be in the same room, at least, with some people who keep an eye out for stuff like that and act when necessary, or yeah, nobody's going to protect you if you need it.

As I said, I don't live in a world, personally, of intimates who'd let me or anybody else get dragged off in a stupor and brutalized. Those aren't the kinds of people who attract me, as lovers or friends or whatever. They never have. So there may be a big disconnect between the writer of the linked piece and my chosen social circles and thus different views of how the world works, I dunno.

My Fox News fundamentalist dad taught me that, too, and I also taught it to my son: sometimes you have to, and if a woman's being attacked, you always have to. There aren't any questions or grey areas or acceptable pauses for consideration on that one. That may be wildly retrograde and sexist and chivalrous and crap, actually, but it's what I believe and a belief I expect to see reflected in my male friends.

Re: 90%?

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Do you really think people purposely hang out with people who they think will betray them, or leave them alone when they're drunk, or not have their backs?

It's good for you that you surround yourself with rainbows and people who will never let you down; I'd like to think that I do the same. But nobody ever knows for sure. Most girls don't go out and put themselves into situations that make them think, "Gee, I could get raped here; I should probably stay."

And I would still appreciate it if people could have conversations with the men in their lives like the ones Rachel describes above.

Re: 90%?

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Congratulations! It only took you four comments to get from empathizing with women about rape to blaming women for getting raped because we choose to hang out with the wrong people.

Re: 90%?

[shewhohashope.livejournal.com]

Well, if you have nothing but passive men and women around you who won't protect you from harm when it arises, I don't really know what to tell you or how your friends list is my responsibility.

Whaaaaat? No, really: What on Earth?

We're also actually the majority, or there'd be a lot more rapes.

I hate to break it to you, but there ARE a lot more rapes and non-rapes (http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic/).

Re: 90%?

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

So there may be a big disconnect between the writer of the linked piece and my chosen social circles and thus different views of how the world works, I dunno.

Actually, I was referring to the sum total, in my life to date, of all those conversations. The "social circles" included co-workers in many different jobs, other students in classes I was taking, other participants in activities I was doing, other people in the jury, etc. Hardly people I hand-picked!

I'm disturbed by how quickly you jumped from a post about how I am bothered by the victim-blaming attitudes I hear so frequently, to blaming me for hearing those attitudes.

ETA: Linked here while following the discussion in cereta's journal

[paradox-dragon.livejournal.com]

I have a question for you. I'm sincerely asking you to think about what I'm saying in this comment and not to take it as an attack.

You say that you do not hang around men who would ever rape someone or stand by and watch them be raped.

Consider the possibility for a moment that your judgment is not, somehow, vastly superior to that of all the women who have been raped by those close to them.

How do you think a woman of your social circle would feel if she were raped by one of your friends who are supposedly above reproach? Do you think, after reading your words here, that she could feel comfortable telling you about it? Do you think that she would expect you to believe her?

Because I wouldn't.

Consider the possibility that you're wrong about one (just one, it only takes one if you're alone with him, if you trust him) of the guys you hang out with. Imagine that one of your female friends is also wrong about him. She trusts him as much as you do. Her judgment is as good as yours. Now, imagine that you're both wrong.

What are the possible consequences to you if you find out that this man you both trusted raped her? Guilt, maybe. Mistrusting yourself. Doubting the rest of your friends, perhaps. Not knowing what to say to her. Wondering how many of the other women you know have been raped.

What are the consequences to her? Being raped. And then being disbelieved by her circle of oh-so-enlightened friends, because none of the guys you hang out with could do that. Questioning her judgment, blaming herself, being blamed by others for choosing the wrong man to trust. If she reports it, invasive medical exams, questions, slut-shaming before a jury as well as her friends and family (or, if she chooses not to allow those close to her to see and hear such intimate, horrible things, she'll have to face it alone). If she doesn't report it, always wondering if she's responsible for someone else being raped by the same man, if it means she's weak, if all her other friends, who still trust this man, will end up in the same situation.

Do you really think that if you faced those consequences, you could honestly say that none of the men you know could or would ever rape, or even support the ideas listed in the original post that lead to rape?

Do you really think that a few good friends can protect a woman from being raped in her own home, in her office, her car, her school, the park where she jogs, her best friend's 21st birthday party, by her babysitter, by her father?

Do you really think that the 2/3 of women who have been raped by people they knew just didn't have your good judgment?

Do you really think that we can make ourselves safe by hanging with a better crowd?

Have you never been wrong about a friend before?

Re: 90%?

[sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com]

I'm fascinated - exactly which man is it you think I should have avoided? My father, when I was a child? The minister at my church when I was 11? The men who've exposed themselves to me in public places? The man who groped me on a fully booked, transatlantic flight, thinking - as he began - that I was asleep?

Re: 90%?

[5251962.livejournal.com]

My rapist was someone who, in my social circle was considered the nicest guy alive. I'd known him for five years. He had two really heinous breakups- and we all just thought he had the most horrid luck with women. "What the hell was wrong with these psychos?! Why would they say that about him?!"
After all, how could this sweet, soft spoken, passive artist who often protested at anti-war rallies and volunteered at the animal shelter ever do the things the two women said he'd done?
In our social circle, you didn't even eat meat, because it was harming someone, let alone force someone into sex- so, of course these women were just being spiteful.

I'm still working through the feelings for what happened to me, but also, trying to work through the fact that when the first one told people what he'd done- I was one of the loudest saying that he "wasn't like that".
I'm still working through how, maybe if I hadn't been, I could have prevented what happened to the second, maybe even prevented what happened to me- which, I know it isn't my fault, but I learned a great deal about that attitude you just posted.
It's not right.

So, you honestly expect that one of your pals is just going to sit down with you and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm rather fond of raping women"? Or do you think perhaps there's a scent marker, a behavior pattern that's a precurser to rape? Because I feel pretty sure if you've got something, the world needs to hear it.
Your assumption is not only likely wrong, but the impact your assumption could have on the women in your social circle is frightening.

Re: 90%?

[colorise.livejournal.com]

I have several friends who were molested and/or raped as children by father figures and authority figures. Tell me, how is it they were supposed to surround themselves with better men? You're so naive, I feel sorry for the women who know you.

Re: 90%?

[cicer.livejournal.com]

...wow.

Honestly, I don't think you get it. Your whole comment just makes it clear to me that as a man, you have never had to live each day of your life with the awareness of the fact that you might be raped every time you walk through a dark parking lot, every time you stay at work late alone with a male coworker you don't know well, every time you enter the apartment of a man you've just started dating.

Given that, of course you don't think rape and sexual assault are as big a problem as women make them out to be. Of course you don't think it happens that often. Of course you think women should be reassured by the fact that there are men who wouldn't rape a woman out there, and if women would simply hang out with them, everything would be OK.

I find your comment incredibly depressing because I'm sure you don't think you are part of the problem. But you are.

Re: 90%?

[vee-ecks.livejournal.com]

Your whole comment just makes it clear to me that as a man, you have never had to live each day of your life with the awareness of the fact that you might be raped every time you walk through a dark parking lot, every time you stay at work late alone with a male coworker you don't know well, every time you enter the apartment of a man you've just started dating.

As I already acknowledged exactly that, I get the impression you didn't read much of what I wrote.

I certainly have no idea how you could think I "don't get it" or don't think rape is a problem. That contradicts like five other things I already said. And as I've also said: this is a core belief that is, yeah, paternalistic and sexist and maybe better discarded at a later date, but I think it's unfortunately necessary and useful, still: some men are wolves, some women are weak, some situations make that imbalance even greater. Part of the measure of a good man is taking action to fight off wolves in those situations. If you can't do that, you are not a good man. This is actually what most fathers teach their sons, in my experience, anyway.

This is what I believe, this is what I do, this is what I pass on. That's what I can do. I'm not responsible for anybody else's cowardice or inaction.

Re: 90%?

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Take a deep breath, put down your fists, stop making it about you, and listen to what these people are telling you. Or you are part of the problem.

This is really good advice. I recommend you follow it. Whether you intend to or not, you are giving the impression you don't listen -- not to the original post, and not to the women replying to your comments. And you're derailing the original point into 'but I don't do that,' 'the other men I know don't do that,' 'women who let that happen to them don't know the right men/are passive,' and 'it is possible for me (therefore everyone else) to live in a world where I don't have to worry about it, so it's not a real problem.' It reads as incredibly dismissive.

Re: 90%?

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

I find your comment incredibly depressing because I'm sure you don't think you are part of the problem. But you are.

Yeah. This. Absolutely yes. All of your comment, but this in particular.

"Yet" and "But"

[tablesaw]

It's as possible it is to be philosophically or intellectually opposed to rape culture while also participating in and perpetuating rape culture as it is to do racist or sexist things while fully believing one's self to be totally not racist or sexist.

I know that most of my friends would say they don't believe the things above. Yet they act as though they do, with varying degrees of regularity. Yet they drive conversations about rape to conversations about false accusations of rape. Yet they vent "righteous" fury (just between us guys, of course) when a woman won't have sex whenever or however they want it.

And many of them would say that they don't believe the things above, and would then follow them with buts which gives them enough wiggle room to, in many cases, disregard their supposed beliefs. I know it's not true that, once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions, but when I'm drunk, I'm really a completely different person. And I know it's possible to ask if a woman wants to have sex with me, but I'd rather not, because it'll break the mood, and then neither of us will get any action. And though I know it's not true that, consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts, but why wouldn't you? I mean don't you care about me? I'm not pressuring you or anything, but I feel a little insulted. What kind of person would do that?

I take a lot of time and effort to turn my beliefs (and, when it comes to rape myths, disbeliefs) into actions. Yet I still am occasionally struck with the fear of false accusations of rape, a wholly irrational fear that I have to fight back with breathing and practiced thoughts, the same way I have to prepare myself for having blood drawn. Yet whenever I am very carefully observing consensual boundaries, I feel the pull of doubt that I really ought ot be more "aggressive" pressing into the very large space between what observing consent and doing things about which our current culture hypocritically looks the other way.

This isn't about the Capital-R Rapes that are so heinous that we manly, manly men do some manly, manly protecting. This is about we men not reserving the privilege of deciding what's rape and what's not, deciding who will be punished and how and who will not. This is about changing the hearts and minds of us men so that the epidemic of "not rapes" (which, in case you don't read through the link, are rapes), is eradicated.

And in that vein, I say to you, man to man: Take a deep breath, put down your fists, stop making it about you, and listen to what these people are telling you. Or you are part of the problem.

Re: "Yet" and "But"

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

"Carry on".

Here via?

[tablesaw]

(Belatedly, I was linked to this post by someone, but the link disappeared. I normally disclose that in my comment, but I forgot. Sorry.)

Re: Here via?

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

No problem. Carry on!

Re: "Yet" and "But"

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

Re. manly men putting down those manly fists, I do wonder how many men who think they could offer a woman physical protection from rape have actually been in a serious fight with a fully-grown adult who is taking no prisoners. Very few, I imagine. It is a sheer ego trip for an average office-working man to assume he could protect an average office-working woman from a violent attacker by the power of his mighty fist. Even leaving aside the fact that this is not a very practical way of stopping his colleague raping his girlfriend within the confines of their own home.

Re: "Yet" and "But"

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

You are quite right about the reality of violence.

Also, how many of us are likely to just happen to walk in on a violent rape? Not many! Whereas all of us have many opportunities to discuss appropriate behavior.

Re: "Yet" and "But"

[softestbullet (from livejournal.com)]

Good comment. Maybe he'll listen to you.

Re: 90%?

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

We're also actually the majority, or there'd be a lot more rapes

It's one in four, dude. We're one in four. You know more women that have been raped than you think you do. You know more men that have raped a woman than you think you do. And rape is a crime which is underreported. Partly because of people like you: men who insist rape isn't that common, men who insist other men they know couldn't rape women, men who repeatedly insist they've taken care of potential/active rapists (using violent language, which just makes survivors more uncomfortable, BTW) so there's no problem. You have made it plain you won't listen, so it's not a surprise you're not hearing what's out there.

Re: 90%?

[miintikwa.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

I have stopped conversations with people about the "I can't believe it's actually one in four women who's been raped" just by speaking up and admitting I was raped.

It is not easy. For a long time I denied it was rape because after it happened I went to a trusted person (the wife of the pastor of the church I was attending at the time) and told her, crying the whole time. She said it couldn't have been rape, because the person that had done it was my then-husband. That, on top of what he'd done to me, caused a lot of pain that I had trouble dealing with for years.

To the people saying that I could've protected myself by not hanging out with "bad men," I ask you this: I should not have slept next to my own husband? I should somehow have recognized that my own husband was going to attack me, turn on me, betray my trust and hurt me?

AS IF.

YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Stop blaming me for what happened to me!