[livejournal.com profile] cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.
tablesaw: -- (Real1)

From: [personal profile] tablesaw

"Yet" and "But"


It's as possible it is to be philosophically or intellectually opposed to rape culture while also participating in and perpetuating rape culture as it is to do racist or sexist things while fully believing one's self to be totally not racist or sexist.

I know that most of my friends would say they don't believe the things above. Yet they act as though they do, with varying degrees of regularity. Yet they drive conversations about rape to conversations about false accusations of rape. Yet they vent "righteous" fury (just between us guys, of course) when a woman won't have sex whenever or however they want it.

And many of them would say that they don't believe the things above, and would then follow them with buts which gives them enough wiggle room to, in many cases, disregard their supposed beliefs. I know it's not true that, once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions, but when I'm drunk, I'm really a completely different person. And I know it's possible to ask if a woman wants to have sex with me, but I'd rather not, because it'll break the mood, and then neither of us will get any action. And though I know it's not true that, consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts, but why wouldn't you? I mean don't you care about me? I'm not pressuring you or anything, but I feel a little insulted. What kind of person would do that?

I take a lot of time and effort to turn my beliefs (and, when it comes to rape myths, disbeliefs) into actions. Yet I still am occasionally struck with the fear of false accusations of rape, a wholly irrational fear that I have to fight back with breathing and practiced thoughts, the same way I have to prepare myself for having blood drawn. Yet whenever I am very carefully observing consensual boundaries, I feel the pull of doubt that I really ought ot be more "aggressive" pressing into the very large space between what observing consent and doing things about which our current culture hypocritically looks the other way.

This isn't about the Capital-R Rapes that are so heinous that we manly, manly men do some manly, manly protecting. This is about we men not reserving the privilege of deciding what's rape and what's not, deciding who will be punished and how and who will not. This is about changing the hearts and minds of us men so that the epidemic of "not rapes" (which, in case you don't read through the link, are rapes), is eradicated.

And in that vein, I say to you, man to man: Take a deep breath, put down your fists, stop making it about you, and listen to what these people are telling you. Or you are part of the problem.
tablesaw: -- (Default)

From: [personal profile] tablesaw

Here via?


(Belatedly, I was linked to this post by someone, but the link disappeared. I normally disclose that in my comment, but I forgot. Sorry.)

From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com

Re: "Yet" and "But"


Re. manly men putting down those manly fists, I do wonder how many men who think they could offer a woman physical protection from rape have actually been in a serious fight with a fully-grown adult who is taking no prisoners. Very few, I imagine. It is a sheer ego trip for an average office-working man to assume he could protect an average office-working woman from a violent attacker by the power of his mighty fist. Even leaving aside the fact that this is not a very practical way of stopping his colleague raping his girlfriend within the confines of their own home.

From: [identity profile] rachelmanija.livejournal.com

Re: "Yet" and "But"


You are quite right about the reality of violence.

Also, how many of us are likely to just happen to walk in on a violent rape? Not many! Whereas all of us have many opportunities to discuss appropriate behavior.

From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com

Re: "Yet" and "But"


Also, how many of us are likely to just happen to walk in on a violent rape? Not many! Whereas all of us have many opportunities to discuss appropriate behavior.

This is true. Emphasising what a hard guy you'd be in the face of an imaginary rape-in-progress can actually be a way of avoiding taking a stand against rape in real life.
Edited Date: 2009-06-08 06:19 pm (UTC)

From: [identity profile] softestbullet (from livejournal.com)

Re: "Yet" and "But"


Good comment. Maybe he'll listen to you.
.

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