(no subject)

[rachelmanija]

cereta has an excellent post on many issues, but mostly on how men are acculturated to believe that rape is okay and that not raping women, much less preventing other men from raping women, is an extraordinary good deed.

I genuinely like a whole lot of heterosexual men. But I do not believe that just because I like a man, he has the same ideas about rape that I do. In fact, the conversations I've had with straight men about rape and sexual harassment have been almost universally depressing. (I know that gay men can also be misogynistic, but in my experience it's much less prevalent.) In my experience, about ninety percent of the men with whom I've had those conversations in person believe at least one of the following:

-Once a man is sexually aroused, he's not responsible for his own actions.

-Once a man is sexually aroused, sex is inevitable and something he can't control.

-If a woman goes on a date with a man/gets drunk with a man/goes to a man's apartment/flirts with a man/kisses a man, she has consented to sex with him and may not revoke her consent.

-Consenting to one sexual act is automatic consent for any further or other sexual acts. (ie, consent to oral sex = consent to vaginal sex.)

-Women falsely accuse men of rape all the time, and all men are terrified of being falsely accused. All conversations about rape must revolve around this, a much bigger problem than the problem of actual rape.

-There is no way for a man to protect himself against accidentally raping a woman whom he thought consented but actually didn't. Verbally asking if a woman wants to have sex with him is impossible. (Yes, I've heard this one repeatedly.)

ETA: Since people are still trickling in, and sometimes blaming me for hearing men blame women for being raped, let me clarify who the men are who I've heard say all that stuff. They are not only my closest circle of self-selected friends. They are drawn from the pool of all men ever whom I've heard discussing rape. This includes co-workers, students in classes I was in, friends of friends, men waiting in line, men with whom I share an activity, men with whom I share public transport, men at parties, men in the jury pool, etc.

The next person who blames me for associating with the general population will get their thread frozen, and may be subject to banning if they persist.

End ETA.

And yes, I do know that men are raped too, and women can be rapists or child molesters. However, due to the way at least USA culture works, while women sometimes believe all this stuff I mention above, it is almost universal in my experience that men do.

If you are a man and you DON'T believe that this stuff is okay, it would be really nice if you started teaching other men and boys what you believe. If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?" And take no as a no. Because right now, you are in the minority.

ETA: If you are a man who does not agree with the rape myths, AND you are vocal about your opinions with other men, this post is not about you. Carry on with your good work.

Comments

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

Here via vito_excalibur.

The vast majority of men do not have the same views of rape as you do, either myth or what you see as the reality.

Some men are scared of false accusations. My belief is that this fear is emphatically not valid, and in any case pales compared to the constant fear women endure on a daily basis. This truly is a sideshow issue when we are talking about what men can do to prevent or stop rape.

A common thread I see in your myths here is poor sexual communication skills. Men are not taught to keep checking, "Are you OK with this? Do you want to do this?" For one thing, the answer might be "No" which is not what he wants to hear. The man may think he knows how to read body language, and be horribly wrong. If I had $0.05 for every time I heard something like "She said no but she meant yes" I'd be quite rich.

The belief that a woman will for certain speak up if something is going on that she does not want is also to blame. Assumptive listening has been responsible for more forcible rapes than knives or guns have.

The majority of men and some women have poor communications skills once sex has begun. This leads to the myths you cite (consent to one type of sex == consent to other forms; men afraid of 'accidental' rape; asking does not prevent rape.) I notice that you didn't mention alcohol. My experience is that alcohol intake resulting in poor judgment is a factor in many otherwise preventable situations.

Men are not taught how to gracefully handle a "No" answer. Everywhere else in life, men are expected to "overcome" or "persevere" or "win" . . . tying ego investment, manhood, and pleasure to seeking that "Yes" at whatever cost.

vee_ecks is part of the strong culture of men out there who teach other men, not only their sons and proteges but their peers and superiors, that a man respects women and "No means no." Full stop.

>> If nothing else, teaching them that it really is possible, acceptable, and sexy to ask, "Do you want to have sex with me?"

Partly this is due to abstinence-only sex education -- if one is supposed to wait until marriage, the question of how to gracefully ask and accept any answer given, including "No" does not even come up. In a promiscuous culture whose sex drive is in high gear, full speed ahead, asking is like deliberately hitting the brakes.

I have no Lens of Telepathy to read into the secret hearts of other men: co-workers, friends, acquaintances, relatives. So I cannot assure anyone that any of these are trustworthy. Women can use the best possible judgment about who to trust, and be wrong, and suffer for it. Even then, you don't always get to choose the people in your life.

As a man, it enrages me that some of the women in my life have been the victims of sexual violence. This rage comes with a sense of helplessness and failure among those men who know the score. We are supposed to protect women, not abuse them, and the fact that 1 out of 4 women has been raped is a testament to our failure as men. Not just to control ourselves, not just to set an example for other men, but to protect women from the two-legged predators.

I can tell a rapist that "No means no" until I am blue in the face. He knows that already. There are men who rape, who enjoy doing it, who look for opportunities. Most of them are otherwise ostensibly law-abiding citizens -- they have jobs, drive nice cars, have female friends and lovers, may even be married and have children. Yes, I am talking about so-called "date rapists" and "acquaintance rape" here.

How can I guarantee that such a scoundrel is not among my social network? I can't. I wish I could. I am privately convinced that try to "teach" these pseudo-men not to rape is like trying to "teach" hungry sharks not to bite.

It is grossly unfair that this puts most of the burden of self-defense on the victim. It's not my unfairness, it's an artifact of predator-prey interaction.

The myths are not to blame for rape; they are merely the excuses, like a smokescreen. Men are to blame, to be specific, that subset of men who believe that rape is OK as long as they don't get caught.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I don't know what you think you're doing with this comment, but this is what you're actually doing:

(1) You're defending as reasonable a man who has blamed women for getting raped (vee_ecks);

(2) You're claiming to know more about rachelmanija's own experience than she does;

(3) You're drawing an entirely false distinction between "rape myths" and the people (particularly the men) who believe them;

(4) You're relying on a gender setup in which masculinity is defined as "protecting women," without giving much thought to the other implications of that setup, or what the women involved actually want;

(5) You're calling it "poor communication skills" when a man is afraid "the answer might be "No" which is not what he wants to hear." In short, the man's fear of being turned down and willingness not to ensure true consent is attributed to "communication," rather than his prioritization of his desire above a woman's.

(6) You are demonstrating several of the rape myths rachelmanija cites (men are subject to many false accusations of rape, men can easily accidentally rape women) while denying her perceptions are valid.

(7) You are derailing LIKE WHOA.

Both rachelmanija's post and cereta's post describe what they, and many women, want from men regarding rape. They do not want your protestations of violent support. They want you to reject rape myths you believe and to refute them when they come up in conversation with other men.

If you wind up drafting an equally long response to this comment, please delete it and just reread Rachel and Cereta's posts. It will be more helpful.

[Edited to correct typos]

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

In no particular order:

vee_ecks is a stereotypical product of the male culture. I am not defending him. I am going to point out however that 1) he came here to talk and invested some time and energy in it, 2) he believes he's a fellow traveler in the effort to stop rape, and 3) he's been chased out because his world view is too far divergent from the majority of commenters -- and ironically enough, much closer to the world view of many, many men.

Chase him off and you have little hope of rational discourse with many, many men.

I am sharing my personal opinion and life experiences, which are somewhat divergent from the OPs, not least of which because I am a man and thus hear more frank conversations from other men. You may of course disagree, but please read what I actually wrote before resorting to knee-jerk responses based on assumptive reading (as your 2, 5, 6 and 7 above).

rachelmanija's perspective is her own, and sufficiently insightful and interesting that it drew various people in, including myself. I appreciate her perceptions and her courage in sharing them.

>> (3) You're drawing an entirely false distinction between "rape myths" and the people (particularly the men) who believe them;

Not a false distinction AT ALL, IMHO. Myths don't have dicks. Myths don't rape. The majority of men who believe in these myths, however obnoxious some people including myself find these myths to be, also don't rape. The myths however do support a social climate in which we don't talk about how to prevent rape; for example, the 'false accusations' meme (which I blatantly dismissed above as a sideshow issue!) taking the place of more important discourse.

However, even if we knock every myth down like the ten-pins they are, there will still be men who rape.

>> (4) You're relying on a gender setup in which masculinity is defined as "protecting women," without giving much thought to the other implications of that setup, or what the women involved actually want;

Our culture and our species utterly rely on the philosophic doctrine of "Women and children first!" I am not writing an academic paper, I am talking about how many if not most men actually feel. Protecting others is only one aspect of masculinity.

>> (5)

Lack of communication due to a combination of fear, uncertainty and lack of respect of others is still a communications issue. Men who are trying to communicate, however poorly, are in a different category than men who are ignoring or disregarding efforts at communication. The former can be taught and/or persuaded not to rape; the latter must be prevented, escaped, or stopped with force.

>> (6) You are demonstrating several of the rape myths

This is not what I said. Read what I wrote. If it is not clear, I am linking the existence of the myths (which ARE in fact myths) with the fact of poor gender communications, which help create and exacerbate said myths. Other commenters have pointed out that communications training was most helpful in creating a safer environment for them; groups such as www.mencanstoprape.org focus on debunking myths and communications skills for the same reason.

Also, I did not recall asking you to judge my contribution for helpfulness, nor did I ask you to censor my reply to you for length or on any other criterion. The OP may feel free to do so; IMHO you lack standing.

Final thought: If I as a man posted in my LJ that 90% of women in my experience . . . [insert BLANK here], and you came to my LJ and shared your perspective as a woman with direct experience, I would not jump down your throat in the same way that you are trying to do to me.

That said, if you feel I am perpetuating any myths about rape, please feel free to call me on it. I welcome the input from a divergent POV.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

You cannot be an ally against rape unless you are willing to listen to what the survivors and victims of rape culture have to say about rape.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

I have replied cogently to your rather hostile seven point comment, which means that I most certainly read it, and I am beginning to believe that not only did you not actually read my original post, but that you did not read my reply either.

1) What makes you think I'm not listening, when all evidence to date is to the contrary?

2) What privileges you to judge anyone at all, let alone the commenters on this LJ post, with respect to being an ally against rape?

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Predators and prey (or wolves and sheep) is a metaphor that sets up the false belief that men who rape are animalistic psychopaths, and women who are raped are helpless animals. This is a very cozy belief, because then any man who isn't a psychopath can believe that he is the shepherd -- the only human in the bunch.

It's likewise very comforting for many men to believe that men who rape are gleeful psychopaths who cannot be talked out of raping, because that idea absolves men of the responsibility of talking to and calling out other men. If rape myths have nothing to do with rape, then of course there's no point to education.

My own experience, and that of many women, is different. I suggest you listen more to what the women are saying.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for the time and energy you've invested in your reply.

I do not wish to communicate in any way, metaphorically or otherwise, that women are either helpless or animals. Please do not take anything I have said that way. It's simply that I'm not talking about women, I'm talking about men, the same way that you are.

As I pointed out elsewhere on this post, all men (bar eunuchs) possess the capacity to rape. Those men who choose to be honest about it, acknowledge privately that there is fire under that smoke, that to choose to be a civilized man is to choose self-control and especially in this context, respect for a woman's choice. (I am neglecting male-male rape.)

Choosing not to rape is a choice for many men. Those men who do rape, IMAO, surrender their claim to humanity through such an act. It is not that these men weren't human . . . it is that they turned in their humanity through infamous although all too common crime, and thereby should lose the respect of all. I label this as personal opinion but I know it is shared by many men. (I will also neglect the rape - beast - racism link.)

It would be very comforting to pretend that of course I would never do such a thing, nor would my friends, co-workers, countrymen, etc. To pretend this is to open the door for it to happen, and in fact to go on happening, continuing the conspiracy of silence. I believe this is one function of rape myths, to serve as an emotional crutch for men to avoid confronting the power and the perils of their own sexuality.

We talk of "inhuman acts" but that is precisely it, these inhuman acts are committed by human beings just like all of us.

Rape myths make it harder for men to exercise social control (both formal and informal) over other men; for women to complain to both women and men regarding problematic as well as criminal conduct; and frame the discussion between men and women in unhealthy ways.

A lot of these myths are comforting lies that men cling to in order to hide the fact (even from themselves) that they are in fact capable of committing rape. So it is true that debunking rape myths is a large part of the problem, but only part.

In the criminological and psychiatric literature it is known that there are several categories of male sex offenders, with motives roughly separated into anger, power and control.

Even if the myths of rape were to be demolished, and every ethical man were to be given the education and the tools to ensure that he would not only never commit a sex crime, but to fully respect the opposite gender in all ways (which would of course be a major improvement) . . .

What about all the rest of the men?

I have seen statistics that one quarter to one third of men would rape if they were assured that they would not get caught; some feminists put the number much higher. Certainly the huge gap between reported & actual rapes (3x to 10x reported), backed up by studies such as the NCVS, shows that not only are there a lot more victims out there, but there are a lot more offenders too.

I don't see debunking myths as enough. I just don't. We get right back to the "teaching sharks not to bite" problem.

Men are the problem. Men must be key to the solution. For a long time yet, someone is going to have to stand between abusive men and their victims. I intend nothing paternalistic or chauvinistic about this. One of many ideas is to automatically grant women concealed weapons permits while requiring men to show cause; 90% of violent crime is committed by men, so there is strong reason behind this gender bias.

Damaged men are often made by their life experiences. The main predictor of sex crime in adulthood is a history of childhood abuse. The long-term solution to men who rape will involve getting rid of criminogenic environments in families, schools and prisons.

I hesitate to mention that I am a survivor and that I am and have been intimate with survivors. I decided to mention it only in the hopes that people reading this might take a closer look at my perspective.

I try to bring you the perspective of one man, and you suggest that I listen more to women. Thanks for your time and your forbearance; if I haven't communicated adequately here, enough is enough.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

Sorry, not logged in.